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  #1  
Old 08-01-19, 11:08 AM
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cymro cymro is offline
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Default Pre 1922 152nd, 153rd and 155th Punjabi titles

With all the confidence of a kitten wandering into a wolves-only night club I'd like to ask about where and with what likelihood of success one would look for the pre 1921 shoulder titles of the 3rd/152nd, 1st/153rd & 2nd/153rd Punjabis. I am a Welsh collector and am looking to complete a collection to the 53rd Welsh Division that served in Palestine 1916-1918. In order to be thorough I am looking to include the shoulder titles worn by the Indian units that came in in May and June 1918 to replace the British battalions that had gone to France.

I may be asking for the moon on a stick here, but I'm afraid my ignorance of Indian Great War titles knows no bounds and I wanted to ask the assembled and significant knowledge on here for their ideas.

In short, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated and responded to immediately.

With Best Wishes
Jon
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Old 08-01-19, 01:19 PM
peter monahan peter monahan is offline
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YOU DARE TO ENTER... oh, never mind. Welcome aboard, Jon.

1) The fairly rare photographic evidence, particularly for Mespot and the East seems to suggest that the wearing of shoulder titles was far from universal in the IA on campaign.

2) All of these battalions were composite units, formed with drafts from battalions already in theatre. [See the crib from Wikipedia below].

3) I'd say that the balance of probabilities is that these men would have worn no shoulder titles, as wearing the mixture of original unit badging would certainly have been unacceptable and the supply situation was such that new badges cannot have been very high on the priorities list.

4) That is a semi-informed guess and worth what you've paid for it!
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Old 08-01-19, 01:19 PM
peter monahan peter monahan is offline
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3/152nd – The 152nd Punjabis was formed of three battalions in May 1918. The first two were formed in Mesopotamia with companies posted from battalions serving in the 14th, 15th, 17th, and 18th Indian Divisions. In contrast, the 3rd Battalion was formed in Palestine with companies posted from battalions already serving in the theatre. The 3rd Battalion was formed on 24 May 1918[21] by the transfer of complete companies from: 20th Duke of Cambridge's Own Infantry, 21st Punjabis, 27th Punjabis and 28th Punjabis

1st/ 153rd & 2/153rd - The 153rd Punjabis was formed of three battalions in May 1918. The 1st Battalion was formed in Mesopotamia with companies posted from battalions serving in the 14th, 15th, and 18th Indian Divisions. It was transferred to Egypt during June and July 1918. In contrast, the 2nd and 3rd Battalions were formed in Palestine with companies posted from battalions already serving in the theatre, particularly from the 3rd (Lahore) and 7th (Meerut) Divisions.

On 13 November, the 75th Division concentrated at Lydda and by 10 December had moved back to Qantara. On 18 January 1919, instructions were received that the Indian battalions would be returned to India as transport became available.[25] The battalions were disbanded in 1920, ’21 And ’22.
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Old 08-01-19, 03:35 PM
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That's a flippin' smashing response Peter, super - comprehensive and confirmation if any were needed of my forehead-slapping ignorance of Indian insignia in the great war. The National Army Museum have a couple of 152 titles in their collection (below). Possibly theatre made or done post hostilities do you think?




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Originally Posted by peter monahan View Post
3/152nd – The 152nd Punjabis was formed of three battalions in May 1918. The first two were formed in Mesopotamia with companies posted from battalions serving in the 14th, 15th, 17th, and 18th Indian Divisions. In contrast, the 3rd Battalion was formed in Palestine with companies posted from battalions already serving in the theatre. The 3rd Battalion was formed on 24 May 1918[21] by the transfer of complete companies from: 20th Duke of Cambridge's Own Infantry, 21st Punjabis, 27th Punjabis and 28th Punjabis

1st/ 153rd & 2/153rd - The 153rd Punjabis was formed of three battalions in May 1918. The 1st Battalion was formed in Mesopotamia with companies posted from battalions serving in the 14th, 15th, and 18th Indian Divisions. It was transferred to Egypt during June and July 1918. In contrast, the 2nd and 3rd Battalions were formed in Palestine with companies posted from battalions already serving in the theatre, particularly from the 3rd (Lahore) and 7th (Meerut) Divisions.

On 13 November, the 75th Division concentrated at Lydda and by 10 December had moved back to Qantara. On 18 January 1919, instructions were received that the Indian battalions would be returned to India as transport became available.[25] The battalions were disbanded in 1920, ’21 And ’22.
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File Type: jpg 152 Punjabis.JPG (24.6 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 152 Punjabis2.JPG (19.0 KB, 1 views)
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Old 08-01-19, 04:35 PM
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BTW, as far as I know, the 155th were not 155th Punjabis, but 155th Indian Pioneers.

Their shoulder title (if one existed) may have reflected that and thus might look different from what you are searching for.

Also I have at least one source that says the it is 153rd Punjab Infantry (but 152nd Punjabis).
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Old 08-01-19, 07:33 PM
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Blimey, it’s pretty complex out in Indian badge land! For the purposes of display it could also be possible that if they wore anything they may have retained the titles of their original unit it seems...
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Old 09-01-19, 01:52 PM
peter monahan peter monahan is offline
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Let's deal with your last question first. Ashok Nath says, in "Sowars ands Sepoys" that 'All ranks of the 3rd Battalion wore a 4 inch black diamond shaped patch on [the] left sleeve.' Perhaps in addition to their original unit collars or in lieu of, but clearly a common badge/marking.

That said, please ignore all that other nonsense that other 'Peter Monahan' spouted yesterday. Logic only takes one so far, and in this case in the wrong direction entirely! This Peter Monahan has done what the other bloke should have done in the first place, instead of pontificating, and gone to Nath's invaluable book. Colour me embarrassed!

The real information is included below. Let me know if you can't make out the photos clearly enough and I'll scan them. These are just cell phone snaps. Again, head bowed in shame!
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  #8  
Old 09-01-19, 01:54 PM
peter monahan peter monahan is offline
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152nd
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File Type: jpg 153rd Punjabis.jpg (39.8 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 152 B.jpg (63.9 KB, 23 views)
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Old 09-01-19, 01:56 PM
peter monahan peter monahan is offline
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Default 153rd

153rd
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File Type: jpg 153rd C.jpg (27.5 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg 153rd Punjabis.jpg (39.8 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 153rd B.jpg (62.7 KB, 8 views)
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  #10  
Old 09-01-19, 01:58 PM
peter monahan peter monahan is offline
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Default 155th

155th Pioneers
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  #11  
Old 09-01-19, 03:15 PM
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This new Peter chap is packed full of the right stuff. That charlatan who stole his login needs to be hunted down forthwith.

It is both reassuring and daunting that all the titles do exist and are somewhere out there. It took me 35 years to complete the Welsh Division British units bit and I'm jiggered if I'm not going to mount and frame the buggers. However, and with amazing cunning, I shall leave a gap at the bottom for the Indian units. I am presuming these are eye-bulgingly rare?
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  #12  
Old 10-01-19, 03:27 AM
Khyber Khyber is offline
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Yes, I guess most of the WWIs titles after 140 are pretty hard to come by.

I'm amazed how Ashok managed to get all these..he's been collecting for well over 40 years I should think, and is still looking for stuff he tells me.
I thought I would stick to my theme and collect only the Indian Cavy titles, but even they're hard to come by though there's only about 45 of them....Can't have everything
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  #13  
Old 10-01-19, 02:09 PM
peter monahan peter monahan is offline
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I suspect that Ashok has the best collection in captivity, barring that of Field Marshal Sir John Chapple, GCB, CBE, DL, who donated his to RMA Sandhurst a few years ago now after spending 60 or so years putting it together. 9,000 IA items and, I believe, another 3,000 to the Gurkha Museum. But, yes, those are very frare. As a place holder/cheat you might consider putting up the "4 inch black diamond shaped patch" for the 3rd/153rd.
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