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  #76  
Old 24-07-13, 09:11 PM
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Sorry to be pedantic about this, but you mean the new ECU? To me, "combat" suggests the old pattern field uniform phased out about 10 years ago.
Follow up, why would there not continue to be unit tabs on the rank slider? The image on the DND web site shows the rank slide in the same location as the existing cadpat uniform. http://www.materiel.forces.gc.ca/en/ss-ni-ecu.page?
This seems to be a repetitive pattern of policy in the army. 1939, battledress introduced, only rank to be worn. 1968, CF uniforms issued. No regimental identification to be worn. And, look what happened in both those cases. With battledress, the uniform ended up sporting regimental, formation, rank, trade, and good/long service insignia. Similarly, the CF uniform morphed into the DEU. I would be willing to bet that if insignia is prohibited on the ECU, it will only be a matter of time before they are added.
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  #77  
Old 24-07-13, 09:23 PM
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Bill,
The picture on your link shows some sort of title beneath the rank. I would assume (key word here) that unit designators would continue to be used.
If that is the correct colour of thread for the rank, insignia will be much easier to see.

Phil
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Last edited by Phillip Herring; 24-07-13 at 09:30 PM.
  #78  
Old 24-07-13, 11:16 PM
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Here's the internal communication on the Canadian Army heritage changes. I note, with dismay, that they are retaining the Star of the Order of the Bath. I am a little disappointed but that's the Army for you.

G1 HERITAGE SITREP 02

Div G1 reps, here is expedient SITREP 02 to further assist your Div G1s and Div SMs to respond to the recent MND announcements on changes to CA identity.

TOPICS in this SITREP

1. Cost
2. Divisions
3. NCM Rank Names
4. Officers Rank Insignia
5. CA Corps
6. CA Secondary Badge

The key changes from SITREP 01 are in paras 2 and 4.

1. COST
The CA HQ is doing everything to manage the changes from these MND announcements while minimizing the cost impact on CA operations. Our approach to implementation of the changes from the MND announcement will always feature, where feasible, introduction of the changes through normal maintenance (painting new signs only when needed) and restocking when current inventories are exhausted (badges, correspondence). The CA HQ is very serious about cost. This has already limited the degree of change the HQ is permitting. Soldiers are taxpayers, our mission and operations are our priority.

2. DIVISIONS
•All LFAs were renamed to Divisions effective 12 Jul 13. There was no change to 1 Cdn Div HQ.
•The Division long names follow this example: 4th Canadian Division and the short form is 4 Cdn Div. The French translations are still being confirmed. .


•Divisions will get division formation patches for wear on the left upper sleeve of the DEU. The colours above are NOT the exact pantones. The current brigade formation patches will stay on the right upper sleeve. CA HQ has met with DHH/DSSPM to initiate the procurement of the patches. No work is required at the L2 level until the patches are produced.
•LFAs did not qualify for a Flag. The new Divisions do qualify for a Camp Flag to indicate the location of the HQ.
•The traditional 2 Div C flag is found below. All Divisions camp flags will mirror this historic flag pattern of our WW II Divisions based on the patch colour background and a stylized maple leaf in gold. According to CFP 200 Ch 4 Sect 6 para 17, Divisions must pay for these flags non-publicly like regiments currently do. The CA HQ is requesting these flags be publicly funded. MTF. No action required at Div level for now as CA HQ will push your flags to you after the current design consultation with DHH.
•It is recommended that there be no changes to the LFA badges at this time.
•Divisions may have mottos and marches. This is being discussed with the Division G1 reps under separate correspondence.



3. NCM RANK NAMES

The changes to NCM rank names will not be official until the QR&O 3.01 is amended. Since 1968, we have been informally referring to Ptes, for example, in the RCAC as Troopers but it was not official. Our NCMs lost their historic rank names in 1968. The MND has announced that the GoC will restore the NCM names along with the officers rank badges. The Corps were consulted and all approved the renaming, the RCIC added more. The CA will staff a change to QR&O 3.01 in order to make it official. After the QR&O is changed, there still may be some hiccups with CFTPO and maybe HRMS but we are already working this. The end-state is:

(English / French)

RCAC/CBRC. Trooper/Cavalier will be restored for the trained Private/Soldat.
RCA/ARC. Gunner/Artilleur for the trained Private/Soldat.
RCA/ARC. Bombardier for Corporal/Caporal.
RCE/GRC. Sapper/Sapeur for the trained Private/Soldat.
RCCS/CTRC. Signalman/Signaleur for the trained Private/Soldat will be superceded by the introduction of the alternate designation Signaller/Signaleur in Ch 11 of CFP 200.

RCIC/CIRC. Guardsman/Garde for the trained Private/Soldat in the Regiments of Guards.
RCIC/CIRC. Rifleman/Carabinier for the trained Private/Soldat in regiments with historical connection to rifle regiments.

RCIC/CIRC. Fusilier for the trained Private/Soldat in regiments with historical connection to regiments of fusiliers.
RCEME/GEMRC. Craftsman/Spécialiste for the trained Private/Soldat will be superceded by the introduction of the alternate designation Craftsman/Artisan in Ch 11 of CFP 200.

These changes are being made to honour our soldiers and the history of the CA. There are also some alternate designations and forms of address that will be formalized by adding them to a new Ch 11 of CFP 200.

RCA/ARC. Master-Bombardier/Bombardier-chef can be used officially in the Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery as an alternate designation/form of address for the Master-Corporal/Caporal-chef appointment.

RCIC/CIRC. The alternate designation/form of address 'Colour Sergeant/Sergent Fourrier' for Warrant Officers can be used in the Regiments of Guards.

RCIC/CIRC. The alternate form of address 'Ensign/Enseigne' for Second Lieutenants can be used in the Regiments of Guards.

RCEME/GEMRC. The use of 'Artisan' can be used for the French form of address for Spécialiste (Craftsman).

For years these rank names have been used informally. They are simply being re-made formal.

4. OFFICER RANK INSIGNIA

The CA was not apprised of this announcement until days before the MND made it. It was announced less than 2 weeks ago so we can only offer preliminary information. It is not generally understood how our Army came to wear the current Navy rank. This SITREP will hopefully allow you to dispel wrong information.

Key Talking Points

a. ‘Stars and Crowns’ is not British. The officers of almost 100% of the armies on every continent of the world including China, Russia, Finland, Colombia, and including the Salvation Army and RCMP wear a system of two identifiers: (i) a star, and (ii) a national symbol…it is an international convention and customary practice so an officer from any country can negotiate on the battlefield or work in coalitions like the UN or NATO and with civilian agencies. Canada's Army used this international customary practice from 1885, officially recognized it in 1903, but lost it in 1968.

b. The CA lost stars and crowns as rank insignia in 1968 when the CA and RCAF plus the RCN were directed to put-up Merchant Navy rank. The RCN successfully got their 'fighting-Navy' executive curl back for their 100th anniversary. Now, the CA will return to Army vice Navy rank in time for the 100th anniversary of WWI and the 75th anniversary of WWII.

c. Cheaper. It costs $33.00 to tailor an officer’s DEU sleeve rank every time they get a new jacket or are promoted. It costs $5-6.00s for a pair of crowns or stars. The CA will save 80% of the costs and pay-off the initial project in just over 4 years. ‘Stars and crowns’ is going to save money for the CA not cost money.

This is what we can share now and will continue to share more in next Friday's SITREP.
•Date of Implementation. Stars and Crowns cannot be implemented until a meeting off the National Defence Clothing and Dress Committee endorses the design for wear on DEU uniform. The CA will likely announce two dates: (i) the date that crowns and stars are available from each officer's Logistik Unicorp account, and (ii) the date they need to be put-up.
•The full implementation may take considerable time to fully introduce because we were unaware of the change and there is no current stock of crowns or stars in the supply system.
•The CA will introduce the traditional rank system of WW II as found in Figure 14 of the 1953 CA Dress Regulations. We have already met with DHH and DSSPM for purchase discussions.
•DEU. The CA will buy and issue one pattern of star and crown at public expense based on one national CA/DHH approved pattern. The crowns and stars will be push pin like the NCM rank badges so the uniform is not damaged.
•Rifle and Guards Regiments. The CA will respect the traditional prerogative of rifle regiments and Regiments of Guards to purchase their alternate colours and patterns of stars and crowns respectively on DEU, patrol, ceremonial, and mess dress. For DEU, the CA HQ has requested public funding but the outcome is not known. For DEU, rifle regiments must still apply to the chain of command and submit their alternative designs for approval by the CCA and DHH. Rifle regiments may contact the G1 Heritage Pat Bryden at 613 415 7707 for additional guidance.
•CADPAT. There is a new high visibility CADPAT rank slip on/velcro project running as we speak. The project will change all CADPAT rank to higher visibility thread. This project will introduce stars and crowns for officers prior to mass production. Thanks to this project, there will be no new cost to put crowns and stars onto CADPAT slip-ons.
•DEU Slip-ons. The CA with DHH will also approve patterns for the officers' slip-on for the CA. Decisions are now being made on the extent of patterns and the extent of public funding support. Vendors are already offering rank badges and insignia to units. Some units might lean forward and we suggest Divisions advise units to not proceed until key decisions are made on (a) permissible public and non-public purchasing, (b) the extent to which units will be permitted to deviate from the CA patterns, and (c) the CA date to implement new DEU rank is announced in a CANARMYGEN. All regiments can trust that our CA HQ is working in the interest of regimental identity and speed to meet the MND intent.
•Mess Dress. It is recognized that a substantial number of our CA units still informally use stars and crowns on their mess dress. The current CA recommendation will be that officers with Navy bars on their mess dress will only be required to put-up stars and crowns voluntarily (grandfathered) but it will be mandatory if/when the officer is promoted. This will be further developed.



5. CORPS
•On 19 Apr 13, the MND restored the names of:

(English / French)
RCAC / CBRC
RCE / GRC
RCCS / CTRC
RCIC / CIRC
RCEME / GEMRC

The RCA / ARC was already Royal and not affected.
•For the CA, this changed the names of some (not all) Branches are now referred to as Corps. Branches with RCN and RCAF personnel in them like the Logistics Branch are still proudly called Branches.
•CA HQ has already coordinated with Corps Directors and we have met with DHH//DSSPM to order new metal shoulder titles and cloth CADPAT flashes. These will be both ENG or FRE. When they are produced (NMB 3-4 months), our plan is to push the new metal shoulder titles to soldiers through their indiv Logistik Unicorp account.



6. CA HISTORIC DEVICE AND VISUAL IDENTIFIER
•The MND has approved the CA to use a version of our proudly worn circa 1940-60s CA badge as our secondary badge. It is being called the heraldic term the 'CA historic device'.
•This change is important as we are about to enter a significant period of commemoration from 2014-20. Our veterans are very pleased.
•CA Flag. A new CA Camp Flag has already been requested for procurement by DHH for delivery this FY.
•CA Pocket Badge on DEU. CA HQ has already met with DHH and DSSPM to initiate procurement of a new pocket badge for DEU that will be delivered in at the beginning of the next FY 14-15.



Star of the Order of the Bath

Insignia of the Order of the Bath; the Latin inscription "Tria Juncta in Uno" translates as "three join to become one" - a reference thought to refer either to the Union of England, Scotland and France, the Union of England, Scotland and Ireland, or, possibly, to the Holy Trinity. The second inscription, "ich dien", translates as "I Serve"

The CA is adopting the Order of the Bath for the star component of the rank insignia for Officers. As you can see the star has a top and bottom, and there are specific inscriptions including "I Serve".

Pre-integration(and we assume that will happen with the new badges), cloth versions of the star could not be produced with enough detail to show the finer points of the design – the crowns were often just shown as 3 blobs – so it was hard to see which way was up. If any of you have any of the old red battle dress stars at home you will note that they were very simplified and the centres were just round white spots so there was no ‘up’ side.
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  #79  
Old 25-07-13, 05:39 AM
MCG MCG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill A View Post
Sorry to be pedantic about this, but you mean the new ECU? To me, "combat" suggests the old pattern field uniform phased out about 10 years ago.
Despite its evolution from olive to CADPAT to "enhanced," the uniform continues to be the combat uniform. With the evolution to "enhanced" there will be no more slip-on. There will be a velcro patch. How does one sew a tab onto a velcro backed patch?
  #80  
Old 25-07-13, 09:47 AM
edstorey edstorey is offline
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Default Uniform Terminology

I too associate 'combats' with the last version of Canadian field uniform.

Scarlets, Service Dress and Battle Dress were also all combat uniforms, yet the distinction is made when discussing these garments and their associated insignia. As stated, the term 'combats' is generally associated with the OG107 green uniform first introduced in the early 1960s and used until the early part of the 21st century. When discussing the new camouflage uniforms, using the terms CADPAT TW and AR helps the reader more readily identify with the item being talked about.
  #81  
Old 25-07-13, 11:47 AM
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Just a note re terminology. DND uses the term ECU not just "combat".
There are several insignia that have used velcro, and it is quite simple to sew or glue a velcro strip on the back of the title/patch. For example, the Stalwart Guardain / Valiant Guardian patches used velcro fastening.
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  #82  
Old 25-07-13, 12:21 PM
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Clive, thanks for the post.
Interesting that the army is continuing a practice that was initially verboten. TWO FORMATION signs will be worn, the Divsion LFA patch and the brigade patch. This practice was not allowed in the Second World War, but was allowed in Korea, and since on various deployments.
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  #83  
Old 25-07-13, 11:33 PM
Michael Dorosh Michael Dorosh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCG View Post
I fully understand the complaint of soldiers who are unhappy seeing this come to pass. The change is unnecessary, unwanted, unhelpful, wasteful, and occasionally supported under an insulting message.
I see there is still a lot of confusion around this decision. It seems discussion on the rationale for the change has been actively halted? Anyone who would like an alternate venue is welcome to read and post at the URL below:

http://canadiansoldierscom.blogspot....ian-armys.html

In summary though - and this is not a matter of opinion, but of fact - the change will save money, not cost money. The announcement from the G1 Heritage makes clear why. (Another point not raised by the G1 is the inevitable wastage that occurs in any insignia - I currently work in the clothing stores of a reserve unit, and we go through a lot of "slip-ons" - the pattern literally doesn't matter, the need for new insignia never goes away - so the issue of 'cost' is really a non-starter.)

It can also be pointed out that the star and crown insignia is not "British" in the general sense (though certainly the specific insignia of the St. Edward's pattern crown and star of the Order of the Bath might be considered so), but as noted by the G1, a common theme in the insignia of military and paramilitary (i.e. police, etc.) forces throughout the world.

For what it is worth, I am personally looking forward to wearing the grey patch of the "Water Rats", and the officers I've talked to seem excited about the return to stars and crowns, a system that had been dispensed with before they were born. Then again, I actually enjoyed the Garrison Dress when it came out too - mostly for the novelty - though quickly tired of the quilted camouflage jacket, waistbelt, and poorly designed boots. I still think the tan shirts looked sharp.
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  #84  
Old 01-08-13, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Dorosh View Post
I see there is still a lot of confusion around this decision. It seems discussion on the rationale for the change has been actively halted? Anyone who would like an alternate venue is welcome to ...
A warning to serving CAF members considering Mr Dorsh’s hollow invitation above. If what you post does not conform to the narrative of Mr Dorsh and Mr Law, then it will be deleted without trace or edited of all its content. They put forward that your post will stay if you disclose your full name and identity to one who is self-identified as being emotionally and politically connected with the imposition of this change. In which case you can most likely expect the chain of command to quickly and harshly come down upon you for having an opinion.

After the moderators had asked that discussion not encompass the merits of the change, Mr Dorsh acknowledged that direction and then proceeded to post arguments in support of the change. Those arguments are demonstrably false or fail when held to scrutiny. In deference to the moderator request, I will not reproduce the separately verifiable facts here. I assume Mr Dorsh is aware, having read the two arguments before deleting all trace of them.

Mods,
I apologise for extending the tangent from your theme. I felt other service members entitled to know of the trap to which they are invited through the post above. To avoid further distraction from your desired topic, I will withdrawal myself from further participation in this thread unless it is decided to broaden the arcs of discussion.
  #85  
Old 01-08-13, 07:45 AM
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Chaps,

As an UK national and no emotional involvement with Canadian badges of rank I think it is time for me to step in and draw this discussion to a close.

Alan
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