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  #16  
Old 09-07-13, 04:02 PM
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Interesting. http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=h...QEwCg&dur=3115
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  #17  
Old 09-07-13, 05:26 PM
ddaydodger ddaydodger is offline
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So we are adopting The Star of The Order of the Bath, how very Canadian of us. Perhaps we should push for the Red Ensign, maybe place ourselves under British Command again, that was always a great success.
  #18  
Old 09-07-13, 06:20 PM
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There is a lot of discussion in the media on this with many of the 'unwashed masses' complaining of the costs. This is understandable as the Minister's announcement put the accent on a return to heritage rank symbols.
Insofar as the Army was concerned, this was a pleasant, and welcome, by-product but the focus was on two items;
1. Inter-operability with Allied nations. Most countries with which Canada is aligned wear rank symbols where three identical devices identify a Captain and a single (different) device identifies a Major. Anyone who has done a UN tour will have noted that Egypt, Jordan, Croatia, and many others, as well as all of the Commonwealth countries, follow this practice. Canadian Army officers have attended international meetings in the field and have been asked both their rank and "why is the Navy here?" due to the existing rank stripes. In fact, of our major Allies only the US and France do not follow this system.
2. Cost. Every new officer and every promoted officer incurred tailoring costs to DND. The tailor was required to open the seam, unstitch the lining, remove the rank, sew on new rank, stitch the lining and re-sew the seam. An estimnated cost of $27.00 per uniform. Additionally, every officer incurred private costs for Mess Dress. Compare to pinning on a new star or crown at a cost of under $1.00. Further, the current rank symbols require every base tailor to stock separate rolls of every rank from O/Cdt to Col and almost 40cm are used per uniform. Compare to two boxes, one containing stars, another crowns.
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  #19  
Old 09-07-13, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ddaydodger View Post
So we are adopting The Star of The Order of the Bath, how very Canadian of us. Perhaps we should push for the Red Ensign, maybe place ourselves under British Command again, that was always a great success.

No. I said "...traditional Star of the Order of the Bath but with the Cross Pate of the OMM in the centre replacing the "Tri Juncta..." device"
Clive
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  #20  
Old 09-07-13, 06:22 PM
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Bill,
Your link shows the Seal of the Order.

Clive
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  #21  
Old 09-07-13, 06:26 PM
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Yes, but the cross pattee is the central device. Should have noted that in the post.
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  #22  
Old 09-07-13, 08:03 PM
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"traditional Star of the Order of the Bath". Yes I understand that the center is a little different, but still fundamentaly a Bath Star. Still funamentally a British star. Most stars I have are about 2 cm x 2 cm. You are talking about a center less than 5mm in diameter. I doubt a soldier walking by and saluting will even see the Cross Pate, all he will see is the star.

I concede your point on cost, long term over short term I can see the advantages. My basic argument stands, why not something Canadian? Why do we have to mimic the British?

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No. I said "...traditional Star of the Order of the Bath but with the Cross Pate of the OMM in the centre replacing the "Tri Juncta..." device"
Clive
  #23  
Old 09-07-13, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddaydodger View Post
"traditional Star of the Order of the Bath". Yes I understand that the center is a little different, but still fundamentaly a Bath Star. Still funamentally a British star. Most stars I have are about 2 cm x 2 cm. You are talking about a center less than 5mm in diameter. I doubt a soldier walking by and saluting will even see the Cross Pate, all he will see is the star.

I concede your point on cost, long term over short term I can see the advantages. My basic argument stands, why not something Canadian? Why do we have to mimic the British?
Yes, the basic Star is British but also worn in Canada, by Canadians, since the early 1800s. This pattern tied in with War of 1812, 1914-2014 and SWW commemorations also.
I have drawings of three different designs, one from DND in the 80's, one from DND dated 2009 and one that I drew about 25 years ago. These were;
Maple Leaves in lieu of 'pips' for all officer ranks,
The OMM on a Star which was the pattern chosen, and
The Order of Canada 'snow flake' which would have been very Canadian yet traditional, in the sense that we would use the 'Star' of the Order.
When drawn and compared side-by-side, the OC looked very 'Japanese'.
As the 'traditional' Star was already in wear by Militia regiments and the RCMP the decision was taken to retain that general shape.

C
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  #24  
Old 09-07-13, 09:58 PM
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I guess my biggest question at this time, and nobody can give an answer yet it seems, is does this mean we are going back to:

- no stripe being Private, Trooper, Sapper, Craftsman...
- 1 chevron (the previous Private Trained badge) being used for Lance Corporal, Bombadier (equil to our current Corporal)
- 2 chevrons (the previous Corpoal badge) being Corporal (equil to Master Corporal now)
- 3 chevrons being Sergeant (same but minus the maple leaf)
- 3 chevrons with a Crown being Staff Sergeant (same as Warrent Officer now) or would we still use a Crown, which I believe had been used sporadically in the past for WO3
- coat of arms for Warrant Officer 2nd Class (vice MWO now) and
- some different coat of arms for WO1 or RSM (vice Chief Warrant Officer now)

If so I'd feel bad for all the Corporals newly promoted to Master Corporal and who now would have to revert to the two stripe rank badge (and title) of Corporal...regardless of it being one rank higher.
  #25  
Old 09-07-13, 10:36 PM
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I have seen most of the proposed rank ideas from unification forward, and they all somehow mimic the British, crowns and stars, crowns and leaves ( and yes the star of the OC looked very Japanese). But my questions still stands, why can't we go our own way? We had issues during UNEF 1 about Canadian soldiers being "too British", and we fought very hard to develop our own " corporate brand". So why go back? Why can't we move forward?
The US doesn't seem to have a problem with an unified rank structure for their 4 services (yes, on certain orders of dress the USN wears stripes), but on all operational dress, and day to day dress, they all wear the same insignia. I don't hear their army, air force or marines whining about a lack of interoperability with their allies, or that the navy Capt wears the same eagle as the marine Col on board the same ship, and that might be confusing, somehow.
  #26  
Old 09-07-13, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klammern View Post
I guess my biggest question at this time, and nobody can give an answer yet it seems, is does this mean we are going back to:

- no stripe being Private, Trooper, Sapper, Craftsman...
- 1 chevron (the previous Private Trained badge) being used for Lance Corporal, Bombadier (equil to our current Corporal)
- 2 chevrons (the previous Corpoal badge) being Corporal (equil to Master Corporal now)
- 3 chevrons being Sergeant (same but minus the maple leaf)
- 3 chevrons with a Crown being Staff Sergeant (same as Warrent Officer now) or would we still use a Crown, which I believe had been used sporadically in the past for WO3
- coat of arms for Warrant Officer 2nd Class (vice MWO now) and
- some different coat of arms for WO1 or RSM (vice Chief Warrant Officer now)

If so I'd feel bad for all the Corporals newly promoted to Master Corporal and who now would have to revert to the two stripe rank badge (and title) of Corporal...regardless of it being one rank higher.

Only the rank names change and not the rank itself. A private (with or without a chevron) is still a Private but may now (officially) be called a Guardsman, Trooper, Gunner, etc... Although the names have remained in use at the Regimental level all official documents had to use "Private". Only the RCA are affected at the Cpl/ MCpl level and they use the terms Bombardier and Master Bombardier. The only NCO rank term that changes is that of a WO in Foot Guards who will officially use "Colour Sergeant". 2Lt and Lt in Foot Guards regiments are called Ensigns.
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  #27  
Old 09-07-13, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by servicepub View Post
Only the rank names change and not the rank itself. A private (with or without a chevron) is still a Private but may now (officially) be called a Guardsman, Trooper, Gunner, etc... Although the names have remained in use at the Regimental level all official documents had to use "Private". Only the RCA are affected at the Cpl/ MCpl level and they use the terms Bombardier and Master Bombardier. The only NCO rank term that changes is that of a WO in Foot Guards who will officially use "Colour Sergeant". 2Lt and Lt in Foot Guards regiments are called Ensigns.
I guess, being the good skeptical citizen I am, I was as concerned with what the Minister didn't say as I was with what he did. With all the headlines stating we were going back to pre-unification ranks, implying all titles and badges, and the Minister not being clear...it caused quite a discussion at work today. Sadly, but not surprisingly, my CWO and CO hadn't heard about this and the clerk had to show them the morning newspaper article.
  #28  
Old 10-07-13, 01:36 AM
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I can't wait until some young soldier walks by my OC and says " Good Morning Warrant!" Then salutes my Pl 2 I/C.
  #29  
Old 10-07-13, 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddaydodger View Post
I can't wait until some young soldier walks by my OC and says " Good Morning Warrant!" Then salutes my Pl 2 I/C.
It was an issue at CFSCE where one of the Sqn OC's is a Royal Corps of Signals major.

Phil
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  #30  
Old 10-07-13, 03:18 AM
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It was a nightmare in Banja Luka, It was almost impossible to tell Brit WOII from Brit Majors, especially with subdued rank, worn center of the chest, granted their rank insignia varies from regiment to regiment. Our WO were constantly saluted by the Brits, but they never mistook officers stripes for anything but officers rank.
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