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  #1  
Old 08-07-13, 07:10 PM
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Default Pips and Crowns re-instated

I have been working with a small group, both within DND and outside, to see this happen.

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2013/...itional-forms/

In addition to Pips and Crowns, traditional rank terminology is now official.

Clive
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  #2  
Old 08-07-13, 07:17 PM
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Thanks for the link Clive.
This is very interesting:
The changes include the re-introduction of divisional nomenclature and patches for the current Land Force Areas; traditional rank insignia for officers; corps shoulder titles from the restoration of Royal titles to a number of Canadian Army corps in April 2013; and the Canadian Army’s secondary badge. Further, the Minister of National Defence announced the intention to restore the historical Army rank names for non-commissioned members.

Interesting twist to the history of division patches. This new structure is based upon the divisions of the Second World War, but the divisions were not organized on a regional basis. In fact, the organization of the divisions during the war was guided by having all regions of the country represented in the order of battle. Divsions were not "from a region".

Divisional Nomenclature and Patches

Land Force Areas will be renamed as divisions and Canadian Army personnel will wear appropriate division patches. Formations will be renamed as follows:

Land Force Quebec Area will be referred to as “2nd Canadian Division”;
Land Force Western Area will be referred to as “3rd Canadian Division”;
Land Force Central Area will be referred to as “4th Canadian Division”;
Land Force Atlantic Area will be referred to as “5th Canadian Division”; and
Land Force Doctrine and Training System will be referred to as “Canadian Army Doctrine and Training Centre”.

There will be no change to 1st Canadian Division Headquarters.
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Last edited by Bill A; 08-07-13 at 07:30 PM.
  #3  
Old 08-07-13, 07:25 PM
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And a bit of historical inaccuracy:

Canadian Army Secondary Badge

The new Canadian Army secondary badge is based on the historical Canadian Army badge used during and after the Second World War. It features the crossed swords, overlaid by three maple leaves conjoined on one stem. A crown is placed atop the maple leaves. The secondary badge will be displayed on the Canadian Army ensign and pocket badge.


The tri-leaf badge used as a general list badge was not in use during the Second World War, (at least as a cap badge).
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  #4  
Old 08-07-13, 08:19 PM
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Default Formation Patches

I figured this was coming based on recent changes to the RCN insignia. Wonder if the RCAF will go back to ranks of Squadron Commander, Wing Commander.etc...

Will Lance Corporal return?

Will the tradional colours associated with the divisions be maintained?

This is all good news..

Dwayne
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  #5  
Old 08-07-13, 09:20 PM
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I'm wondering if a stripe will be retained on the sleeve of the DEU in addition to the pips/crown to identify the wearer as an officer, similar to the US Army.

Next, watch the RCAF go back to "barcode" rank.
  #6  
Old 15-07-13, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill A View Post
And a bit of historical inaccuracy:

Canadian Army Secondary Badge

The new Canadian Army secondary badge is based on the historical Canadian Army badge used during and after the Second World War. It features the crossed swords, overlaid by three maple leaves conjoined on one stem. A crown is placed atop the maple leaves. The secondary badge will be displayed on the Canadian Army ensign and pocket badge.


The tri-leaf badge used as a general list badge was not in use during the Second World War, (at least as a cap badge).
Came across documentation held at DHH about the Canadian army badge. The sword / maple leaf design was not authorized until 1947. Even then it was not widely adopted for use. In 1952 it came to the attention of AHQ that the badge had not been followed through on. It was then taken into general use. It formed the basis for the "general list" badge but in queen's crown.
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Last edited by Bill A; 15-07-13 at 01:30 PM.
  #7  
Old 18-07-13, 11:17 AM
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Its interesting to see the blowback on other websites and talking to other soldiers about this and how much they dont like this. It also comes at a bad time with all the job cuts, including mine, that guys are wondering why they want to spend the money on this. I have yet to talk to an officer who likes this change. Personally it dosnt make any difference to me and it does seem like it might save some tailoring costs down the road but its going to be fun watching all the missed salutes!
  #8  
Old 18-07-13, 03:14 PM
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I fully understand the complaint of soldiers who are unhappy seeing this come to pass. The change is unnecessary, unwanted, unhelpful, wasteful, and occasionally supported under an insulting message.

The world over (universally amongst our NATO allies but with some exceptions external to the alliance) military ranks are distinct to a nation and they often contain imagery and symbolism of national pride. Just as a flag is linked with the identity of its nation, so too is the rank insignia and uniform of the military. The current common rank insignia is uniquely Canadian and it incorporates elements from the former services.

After nearly a half century of proud service, the current rank insignia is what current serving service personnel identify with. Referring to pips & crowns as our traditional rank is inaccurate – it is our historical rank, but our tradition has changed. Tradition is something that evolves, sometimes consciously, sometimes not, sometimes out of desire, and other times out of necessity. After two generations, the current tradition (the rank the Army now identifies with) is the current system of rank.

This is an important reality that must be accepted by those arguing that the move rights a wrong of unification because the opposite is in fact true; it repeats a wrong. In 1968 the government reached into the Army and, against the desire of most members and the expressed wishes of Army leadership, the in-place symbols of identity/rank were thrown out the window and new ones imposed. Today the government is reaching into the Army and, against the desire of most members and Army leadership, the in-place symbols of identity/rank are again being thrown out the window and new ones imposed. If it was wrong in 1968, it is wrong today.

Not only is the current rank now our tradition and change unwanted, the current rank insignia are more functional than the historical ranks. It facilitates communication across the environments because, even though service pers may not be able to name the rank, all CAF members can recognize the rank of any other CAF member. If you go into a coalition environment today, you will find a great mix of every nations’ army, navy, air force, marines and gendarmerie – our common CAF rank actually helps in this setting because our allies only have one rank system to learn. The idea that pips are an Army rank system and therefore pips & crowns will improve communication within a pure army coalition is balderdash – the British system of pips & crowns differs from the norm “on the continent” (and there is even variation amongst those nations). There are also a substantial number of allies who do not use any pips as ranks including USA, France, Romania, Bulgaria, Portugal, Slovania. In the end, the only way we will ever see a rank that truly improves recognition in a coalition environment will be if we successfully lobby for pan-NATO Joint rank insignia ... that notion is probably several bridges too far. Sticking closer to home, we could preserve the enhanced ability to communicate across environments which is provided by our current rank system.

Because the change is unwanted and unhelpful, the waste going into this really stands out. Renaming the CA, RCN and RCAF has already cost over $1 million as reported in the press. How much more will this cost to implement? I am not convinced this will eventually pay for itself either – instead of sewing a ribbon of rank onto just the officer uniforms, we will sew branch/corps/regimental identification tabs onto the sleeve shoulders of every member in the Army. How much will it cost to embroider pips and crowns onto the dress shirt slip-ons as opposed to sewing on the strip of ribbon? How will costs compare to embroider the more intricate pips & crowns onto operational clothing slip-ons as opposed to embroidering the simple bars now?

Unfortunately, one of the biggest wastes in this whole thing is not money but effort. For all the staff effort that will go into this in Ottawa, a person could probably have been found to instead push through a few minor equipment projects or help accelerate a major project to get soldiers operationally needed clothing or equipment. Or maybe this person could have updated some years out of date CFAOs on military careers and promotion (resulting in usefull improvements to how personnel progress through the ranks). When a decision is made on the design of the new ranks, that is going to take-up the purchasing time of a item and supply managers working for soldier systems in ADM(Mat) – that means these people will be postponing the buying of potentially more relevant soldier kit. In all the time that the MND and his staff spent discussing, planning, and presenting the various little bits of these silly aesthetic identity changes – what files were marking time? Where is the solution to the housing problem in Cold Lake? Where is the solution to the families that have lost tens of thousands because the housing markets were less than favourable when the CAF ordered a move? How many expenditures requiring ministerial approval time expired?

And if it wasn’t enough for this change to be unnecessary, unwanted, unhelpful, and wasteful – soldiers are treated with the additional (unintentional) slap in the face of being told this will restore lost pride. Lost Pride?! That very statement implies some lack or want of pride over the last decades. Go look an Afghan vet in the eyes and tell him “you guys lacked pride over there.” There was no shortage of pride amongst the guys fighting over there.

I am sorry if this message doesn’t sit well with those who are really happy to see the change, but that’s how it is. There are some serving members happy with this, but they are a small minority.

I will admit, authorizing the use of historical branch titles for the private rank was the right thing. As those rank titles continued to be used in practice, they remain a tradition that soldiers identify with. However, I would not see the NDA amended in Parliament just to add the missing ranks of Colour Sergeant and Ensign.


On a different but not unrelated topic, what will become of the “CANADA” shoulder tabs when the new cloth branch/regimental tabs replace the metal tabs and move from the epaulet to the shoulder of the sleeve? The media jumped all over the potential loss of maple leafs, but no mention of the possibility that the uniform will cease to mention the nation by name (and let’s face it, not on regiments contain “Canada” or “Canadian” within the name).
  #9  
Old 18-07-13, 03:50 PM
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I can tell you that all but one army officer I haven spoken to likes the change and feels it is long overdue. Sure the navy and air officers are complaining...suck it up boys. Granted the NCMs don't care one way or the other, but I'm sure the other cuts would be happening anyways, regardless of this initiative, especially to the annuitants.
  #10  
Old 08-07-13, 08:58 PM
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Default Canadian Army Returning to Old Style Ranks

Servicepub was quicker than me...............

Jo
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Last edited by Voltigeur; 08-07-13 at 09:04 PM.
  #11  
Old 08-07-13, 09:39 PM
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Sorry Jo. Have I missed something here?

Cheers Al
  #12  
Old 08-07-13, 10:16 PM
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Default Restoration

Hi Clive

Many congratulations to you, your group and all Canadians who have worked so hard to achieve this.

Is there the slightest possibility that you could now turn your attention to restoring our Army?

Best wishes

Gordon
  #13  
Old 08-07-13, 10:34 PM
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I'm having a bit of a problem with "traditional" rank. Does that mean pips and crowns on the cuff or shoulder strap? When the army changed in WW1 many officers, like Cyrus Peck VC, DSO for example, considered officers who moved rank from their cuffs to their shoulders to "lack spleen". And what is traditional? We have been wearing stripes on service dress for almost 50 years, almost as long as we wore pips and crowns on the shoulders, so how are stripes not "traditional"?
My big concern is of course the cost. How many officers will need new tunics? Most I would imagine, plus the cost of the rank itself, plus tailoring, plus new command badges, plus division patches etc. Aren't we in a period of fiscal restraint? I have soldiers who can't get boots and CADPAT, who can't parade because there is no money for pay, but we have money for this?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for tradition, but not at the expense of training or equipment, or as smoke and mirrors by the chain of command as the army budget gets cut 25% in the next 5 years.
Rant ends.
  #14  
Old 08-07-13, 11:17 PM
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I'm curious to see if the Star of the Order of the Bath will be used for the stars, or if a Canadianized star will be introduced.

Phil
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  #15  
Old 08-07-13, 11:21 PM
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Thank you guys. I guess I really did miss something today!
Perhaps we shall even see the return of the' Conductor ' appointment in the Log Br? Maybe a tad difficult as the Log Br is tri service!!!!!
I must agree with ddaydodger that this will not be a cheap transition; will re tailoring costs be borne by the public purse or by the individual?
The future remains to be seen (and costed).

Cheers Al
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