Recruiting Sergeant - Rosette?

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by yorkie

Noty exactly the same I know but this is a rosette worn by Officers and men of the Leeds Rifles (and other Regiments) on Minden Day The rosette signifies the regiment was awarded the Croix de Guerre for an action during WW1

One of those little items I haven't actively sought out but would like to get, along with a KOYLI , RRF roses, Cheshire's oak leaf etc.

[grey_green_acorn]

is this the correct Croix de Guerre rosette for the Leeds Rifles?

Tim

[yorkie]

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

is this the correct Croix de Guerre rosette for the Leeds Rifles?

Tim

Hello Tin I can`t say for sure what you have there, definatly a cockade of a Croix de Guerre, but to which regiment. I have a photo of the sealed pattern awarded to the 8th Battalion West Yorks, but am unable to share it with you guys, as the actual patten is not mine but belongs to a collegue. The patten shows the idenicle cockade to the two I own as per the photo in my first post.
Perhaps your one was awarded to another regiment in that action or another action. I do know on the morning of July 28th 1918 at Montaigne de Bligny that the 8th Batt Leeds Rifles, with the 1/5th Devons on their right and the 2/5th West Yorks attacked the enemy positions and captured their objectives in spite of strongly defended enemy forces superior in number, and maintained the position in spite of heavy losses and desperate efforts of the enemy to regain the ground.

I can also tell you that according to my records that the following regiments were awarded the distinction of wearing the colours of the Croix dr Guerre.
The Light Infantry Volunteers.
Battalion Headquarters & Headquarters Company (Shropshire).
The Kings Shropshire and Herfordshire Light Infantry (Territorials).
The 51st Highland Volunteers, Battalion Headquarters Company.
3rd (Territorial) The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment).
211 (Wessex) Casualty Clearing Station, Royal Army Medical Corps (Volunteers).
8th Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment The Prince of Wales Own. (Leeds Rifles).
I hope this helps
The Leeds Rifles Cockade has only 4 Red Hoops. Having another look at Tim`s Cockade it appears to be made from Croix de Guerre Medal ribbon.
Cheers Merry Christmas Andy.

[leigh kitchen]

"From "Military Customs" by Major TJ Edwards (Gale & Polden 5th edition 1961).
It is a common practise in some foreign armies to decorate the regimental Standards and Colours with medals, or place on the Colour pike a "Fouragerre".
This custom, however, has not been adopted in the British Army.
The nearest we get to it is the wearing on the pike of the Regimental Colour a citation or streamer............., or wearing in the head-dress of a cockade made up in the colours of the French Croix dear Guerre, or wearing a piece of this ribbon at the top of the sleeve of tunics, etc., by all ranks of those units which have been "cited" in French Army Orders for some exceptional exploit when operating in conjunction with French troops, and who have received official War Office authority to wear the distinction.*
(*The distinction for Belgian and U.S.A. awards is worn on the sleeve......).

A number of units have been "cited" in the Orders of a French Army or French Army Corps, but not all have received War Office authority to wear the distinction..
This distinction is rare and has been granted to the following units only:-

2nd Bn. The Devonshire Regiment: In commemoration of their exploits on the Aisne in 1918.

8th Bn. The West Yorkshire Regiment: In commemoration of their exploits at la Montagne dear Bligny in July, 1918.

1st/4th Bn. The King's Shropshire Light Infantry: In commemoration of their exploits on 6th June, 1918.

Under Army Order 118/1950 the following units have been authorised to wear a piece of French Croix dear Guerre ribbon (1914-18) of full width, 1/2 inch in depth, horizontally near the top of each sleeve, but below the arm title when the latter is worn:

5th Field Battery, Royal Artillery: In commemoration of their distinguished service on 27th May, 1918, near Pintavert on the River Aisne.

6th Bn. The Black Watch: In commemoration of distinguished service in battles between 20th and 30th July, 1918, about Chambrecy.

128th (Wessex) Field Ambulance, Royal Army Medical Corps: In commemoration of extraordinary devotion to duty in evacuating sick and wounded civilians from St. Anand during violent enemy bombardment from 22nd to 25th October, 1918."

Major Edwards goes on to mention the 9th Bn. Tank Corps receiving a citation in French Army Orders, the unit was disbanded after WWI.

[grey_green_acorn]

Andy and Leigh,
Thank you both for the additional detailed information. Looking at the two rosettes/cockades they seem to differ in make-up being constructed from pieces of full size and miniature 1915 Croix de Guerre medal ribbon which would explain the variation in visible green and red stripes.
My example is smaller than Andy's and I suspect of more recent manufacture. It may well be for a unit other than the Leeds Rifles.

Tim

[leigh kitchen]

I've been trying to find a reference I'd seen to a TA unit resurrecting the lapsed practise of wearing a Croix de Guerre ribbon or rosette, I had an idea it was a KSLI or descendent unit. The unit's actual CdeG had been lost or stolen at some time.
I don't know if I had my wires crossed, the unit I was thinking of may have been a RA one.

In "British Army Badges" by Lt Col R Hodges (published in 2005) it's stated that 19th Regiment RA "The Highland Gunners" - their 5th (Gibralter 1779-1783) Battery wears the ribbon of the CdeG on the beret immediately below the cap badge, on the right side of the forage cap and on both sleeves in Number 1 Dress and Mess Dress.
The actual medal awarded was stolen in 1960, it's replacement is afforded the same honours.

The same book also states that the Devonshire and Dorset Regiment wear the ribbon of the Croix de Guerre.
The anniversary of the battle for which 2nd Bn Devon's were awarded the C de G with Palm was marked annually until 1939 by a red and green cockade being worn behind the cap badge on 27th May.
Photographs in the book show a strip of C de G ribbon worn below the right shoulder.

234 (The Wessex) Field Hospital (Volunteers) wears the ribbon of the C de G on the upper left sleeve of No. 2 Dress.
The C de G with Silver Gilt Star was awarded to 24th (Wessex) Field Ambulance RAMC which was retitled 128 (Wessex) Field Ambulance, then 211 (Wessex) Casualty Clearing Station in 1967, and finally 243 (The Wessex) Field Hospital in 1996.

[leigh kitchen]

From "Badges, Backing's & Special Embellishments of The British Army" (published 1992).

5th (Gibralter 1779-1783) Field Battery Royal Artillery and the Devonshire and Dorset Regiment are the only units in the Regular British Army which are allowed to wear the Croix de Guerre medal ribbon as a special embellishment.
In the case of 5th Field Battery the ribbon is worn immediately below their beret badge, a unique style of wear believed to have been selected to avoid clashing with the shoulder badges worn on both arms in connection with their Allied Mobile Force (L) role (AMF badge and Union Jack).
In No. 1 and Mess Dress the ribbon is worn on both shoulders and on the right side of other head dress.

The 1st/4th King's Shropshire Light Infantry wore a C de G cockade on the service cap up to 1941.
The tradition is now maintained by officers, WOs and sergeants of Bn HQ and E Coy of 5 LI (Volunteers).
The cockade consists of a rosette with central button and two swallow tails in the red and green of the C de G ribbon.

The 8th Bn of the Prince of Wales's Own West Yorkshire Regiment (Leeds Rifles) lodged their C de G in York Minster in 1921 as being a Rifles unit they did not possess colours.
All members of the 8th Battalion and their successors are entitled to wear the WWI pattern 7 bar ribbon of the award. It is worn on the upper right arm of the JHW approach. 4" from the point of the shoulder and on both arms of Service Dress and No. 2 Dress. A practise continued to the present time by "C" Coy 2 York's (V) and "B" Coy 3 York's (V) as the direct descendent Rifle Company successors to the Leeds Rifles, disbanded in 1968.
Having been awarded for actions at Bois de Petit Champ and Bligny during WWI, the medal and citation returned briefly to Montagne dear Bligny on 27th July 1968 on the 50th anniversary of the action

The 6th Bn Black Watch wear the lanyard and ribbon of the C de G.
The distinction is now worn by HQ Coy of the 1/51 Highland Volunteers who also carry the colours of the old 6th/7th Bn Black Watch with the decoration pinned to the colours.
The pipe band banners bear motifs associated with the C Dr G and it's colours of red and green.

211 (Wessex) Field Hospital RWMC (V):
The C Dr G was awarded to 24 Field Ambulance RAMC.
The Cross was pinned to the unit flag at Enghein, Belgium in February 2919 by General Degoutte. Initially the flag and Cross were laid up in Exeter Guildhall but are now held at the TA Centre which houses 211 (Wessex) Field Hospital RWMC (V), today's inheritors of the distinction who also hold the original flag and citation at HQ in Plymouth.
Members of the unit wear the red and green C Dr G ribbon on the left sleeve of No. 2 Dress but unlike their predecessors no longer wear the lanyard.
The officers carry on the tradition of toasting the French Army on Guest Nights.
The direct successors to 24 Field Ambulance were raised in 1920 when the TF was reformed as the TA and designated 128 (Wessex) Field Ambulance RAMC TA and maintained the wearing of the ribbon on both sleeves, a lanyard and of toasting of the French Army.
Serving with G.A.D. during WWII the unit was reformed as a CCS after WWII but in 1967 amalgamated with a Cornish RWMC TA unit.

[leigh kitchen]

"British Army Uniforms and Insignia of World War Two" by B. L. Davis:

Cap badge cockade worn prior to the outbreak of WWII by personnel of 2nd Bn The Devonshire Regiment.
Made from the ribbon of the 1914-18 C de G positioned behind the cap badge on SD caps and worn each year on 27th May.
During WWII 2 Devon's wore a 1/2" deep shoulder flash of the 1914-18 C de G ribbon on both shoulders and for a short period also a red and green lanyard.

4th Bn KSLI, in commemoration of the gallant exploits of 1/4 KSLI at La Montagne dear Bligny on 6/6/1918 all personnel were on 3/6/1922 presented with cockades of 1914-18 C Dr G ribbon to be worn on the left side of the SD caps by all ranks.
On 1/8/1941 as an economy measure the wearing of the cockade was restricted to officers and members of the band. All other personally wore instead a 1/2" deep shoulder flash of the C de G ribbon (without the original bronzed palm emblem) at the shoulder point on both sleeves of the BD blouse.

6th Bn Black Watch received the 1914-18 C de G with Palm during the course of the victory celebrations in Paris on 12/7/1919.
During WWII personnel wore a lanyard of red and green around the left shoulder, the lanyards being purchased under battalion arangements.

7th (Service) Bn, SWB were awarded the C de G with Palm on 18/9/1918.
The battalion was reformed in October 1940, permission was granted by the WO for personnel to wear the C de G flash on the left arm of the uniform 2" below the shoulder seam.
Authority to wear the flash was withdrawn when in January 1942 the battalion was converted to become 90th LAA Regt RA.

8th Bn The West Yorkshire Regiment (Leeds Rifles) was presented with the C de G in 1918.
A cockade made from the ribbon of the G de G was worn on the left side of the SD cap by all officers of the battalion by permission of HM King George VI.

128 (Wessex) Field Ambulance RAMC, TA.
Formed in 2920 as the direct successors of the WWI 24th Field Ambulance RAMC.
During WWII, serving with G.A.D., it's members wore the flash of the 1914-18 C de G on both upper arms of the BD blouse and the red and green C de G lanyard.

[leigh kitchen]

An image showing two sergeants marching with a body of men and with presumably red, white and blue rosettes fitted above the chinstrap buttons on their caps (the man in fronts held by a hat pin?), no twisted cords being worn.
Possibly a WO, wearing a more impressive rosette, again it looks as if it's affixed by a "hat pin".

[yorkie]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

An image showing two sergeants marching with a body of men and with presumably red, white and blue rosettes fitted above the chinstrap buttons on their caps (the man in fronts held by a hat pin?), no twisted cords being worn.
Possibly a WO, wearing a more impressive rosette, again it looks as if it's affixed by a "hat pin".

This item got me thinking about a group of militaria I bought many years ago. All the items came from one soldiers property. And sorting items out I remembered these two lengths of silk ribbon. I now wonder if they were used for rosettes in the manner described above.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by yorkie

This item got me thinking about a group of militaria I bought many years ago. All the items came from one soldiers property. And sorting items out I remembered these two lengths of silk ribbon. I now wonder if they were used for rosettes in the manner described above.

They look to be recruiting ribbons to me, Yorker. As well as rosettes, it had been common to have long tails and some weaving or wrapping around the circumference of the cap of those on recruiting duty. The task was popular when still the role of battalions; officers and sergeants had a procedure to follow if they wished to volunteer. Strict instructions for “subsistence” funds were laid down. For a great many years one or more drummers would always accompany the party and their side drums too, were festooned with ribbon.

[JerryBB]

I bought a victory medal from a split pair a few years back and it came on this ribbon.

As an aside I was able to buy his matching War Medal and complete the pair he was awarded.