Royal Naval Engine Room Artificer badge

[ASR142]

Hi GUYS
I found this at the car boot today and was woundering if any one has seen one before and could tell me a bit more about it ie wear it was worn ? when used / what period ? it measures 6 cm wide and 9 cm tall ( the actual badge and not the backing cloth . cheers steve

[Alex Rice]

Hi Steve
I've never seen this before, but the crown on the badge looks Victorian, which would tie in with when engine-room artificers were introduced in the RN. I 'googled' the motto 'Tubal Cain' and got lots of hits about the 'secret password of a freemason'. Apparently freemasonry was quite strong in the RN.
Cheers,
Alex

[Paddy]

Steve

I believe the badge you show is a blazer badge and it dates from after 1952. Artificers did not wear branch badges and if you look at the centre jewel on the crown it is blue. From 1901 to 1920 the centre jewel was red but in 1920 it changed to blue which would make it a Queen's crown as opposed to a Victorian crown.

Paddy

[DougSA]

What badges/insignia did RN engine room artificers wear during WW1?

[RCN]

E.R.A.'s have worn no rate badge since inception & wore no rate badge either war. I dont know what they are wearing now tho,

Bryan

[Paddy]

Bryan

Artificers did wear rate badges but did not wear branch badges. Artificers do not exist today as they are now called Engineering Technicians. ET(ME) for Marine Engineering, ET(WE) for Weapons Engineering and AET for Air Engineering Technicians.

Paddy

[Alex Rice]

Hi Paddy
Thanks for the info on the crown jewel. Not questioning your knowledge at all, but looking at the construction of that blazer badge, do you not think it could be older than made in 1952? Most blazer badges which are more modern are more precise, ie the rounded corners on the flags look older and I'd expect them to have been better constructed.
Cheers,
Alex

[Paddy]

Alex

You're not questioning my knowledge of blazer badges as I don't think I've got any. I'm just really making an educated guess on it's age given the fact about the jewel (the source of which is EC Coleman's book, Rank & Rate, Royal Naval Officer's Insignia Since 1856, very good book on RN officers badges). Even if the badge was made in circa 1952 it still makes it almost 60 years old. As the jewel changed from red to blue in 1920 I don't believe it is a Victorian crown, it's certainly not a King's crown so I think the only alternative is that it is a Queen's crown.

Paddy

[Alex Rice]

Hi Paddy
Thanks for the reply. With hindsight, I also don't know that blazer badges would have been worn much in Victorian times.
Cheers,
Alex

[alco]

Originally Posted by Paddy

Bryan

Artificers did wear rate badges but did not wear branch badges. Artificers do not exist today as they are now called Engineering Technicians. ET(ME) for Marine Engineering, ET(WE) for Weapons Engineering and AET for Air Engineering Technicians.

Paddy

hello,

No branch badge indeed, but a special cap badge (pic 1).
Could you define the activity of an Artificer and concerned period ?
For me, it has been for long a mystery as this term should have a different meaning in french !

Else, I am ok with the designation of blazer badge (maybe for an association : crossed jack & navy white (or merchant red) are often used for this purpose ...)

More, I appreciated the precisions for crown & jewels : I have immediatly checked my collection !!!
Many thanks.
a+alco

[ASR142]

A BIG thanks to Paddy for sharing a little knowledge with us all ( the coulor of the jewell and is positioning ) on this thread which I beleave will be off grate use to me during the rest of my life on dating certan badges and a thanks to those who have also contributed to this thread also .steve

[Paddy]

Alco

I have attached a couple of pictures of the actual Artificer badges, KC & QC. I have also attached some pictures of a Pre 1920 Officer's Cap badge, a Post 1920 Officer's Cap Badge and a Post 1952 Officer's Cap badge to illustrate the jewels.

I can only comment on the activities of Artificers since 1982 as that is when I became one. I joined as an Artificer Apprentice (A/A) and after a year of training, mainly classroom, I was categorised as a Weapons Engineering Artificer Apprentice (WEA/A). A further 2 and a half years of academic training, with 1 years sea training in between, followed resulting in a grand total of 4 and a half years worth of apprenticeship. Our main purpose was to maintain the weapons systems on ships (and submarines for those unlucky enough to be selected as submariners, that should upset a few) and rectify any defects that occurred (mainly by heavy handed operators, that should upset another few). We are now known as Engineering Technicians but effectively we still do the same job. The Marine Engineers & Air Engineers did roughly the same length of apprenticeship but they concentrated in their own fields of engineering.

Paddy

[alco]

'llo

ASR142 - sorry for your badge not so aged as espered !

the same occurs to me thanks to the informations from Paddy !!!

Some UK badges, believed to be very old, are in fact post 1920 or simply fakes due to one mm2 of blue silk.
So all RNAS or RNVR or RNR badges with blue jewel are obviously fakes as all 3services were disbanded in 1918 ...

On other hand, I have to seek for more RN badges :
= 1856-1869 victorian 1st pattern (req.)
= 1870-1891 victorian 2nd pattern (owned)
= 1891-1900 victorian 1st pattern again !
= 1901-1920 Imperial (or Tudor) pattern w/ red jewel ! (owned)
= 1920-1937 Imperial pattern w/ blue jewel (width 3'') (req.)
= 1937-1952 Imperial pattern width 3-3/8'' (owned)
= 1953=> St Edward pattern (owned)

not to mention the 1846 pattern !

Thank you again, Paddy, and am I ok with this classification ?

a+

[alco]

Paddy,

thanks for explanations about ARTIFICERS
the modern designation 'Engineering Technician' lost his mystery but is easier for comprehension !
Should be in french 'mécanicien d'armes'

the french term 'artificier' is more restrictive, designing a bomb disposal expert or a fireworks operator !!!


what about these badges ?

[Alex Rice]

Hi All
I believe the red embroidered cap badges were not necessarily for artificers. I think the official term was for 'Miscellaneous Ratings'. In other words, any rating below the rank of petty officer (who would wear a gold wire embroidered badge) who was not entitled to wear a cap with a cap tally for a particular ship or shore establishment.
From the 1956 booklet issued by the admiralty -"The Royal Navy As A career" it is described as 'Cap badge worn by ratings not dressed as seamen'. If a rating was wearing 'square rig' he would be wearing the peakless cap with the cap tally on it, otherwise he would be in fore-aft rig with peaked cap and red embroidered cap badge.
Cheers,
Alex