British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Royal Navy and Royal Marines

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 30-09-15, 07:24 PM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 3,202
Default

Personally I do not doubt this story regarding the transition between the Brodrick and a peaked forage cap. At that time (the mid 1920s and recession throughout much of the world) there was a retrenchment in Defence spending and many aspects were cut, at both ends of the spectrum. At the other (less trivial and more expensive) end, the RAF were fighting for their very existence and the RN were having to adjust to cuts in capital expenditure on modern ships in the Navy. The RMLI and RMA were merged and new caps were a low priority.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 30-09-15, 07:37 PM
Sunray9's Avatar
Sunray9 Sunray9 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 591
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guzzman View Post
I'm afraid he did write 'Broderick' Grumpy! And I accept yours is the correct spelling.

Re Deal. I know it continued as the RM School of Music until it closed but I think that all recruit training moved to Lympstone in the 1950s or the early-1960s at the very latest. I'll have to check the date.

Pete
Pete, certainly the first few months of RM Recruit training took place at Deal, square bashing etc. from sometime during the early part of the 20th century. When I joined ('63) having completed the initial training we then went to the then 'Infantry Training Centre Royal Marines' at Lympstone. Now known as 'Commando Training Centre Royal Marines' where all Recruit training takes place.

Ritchie.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 30-09-15, 10:12 PM
Guzzman's Avatar
Guzzman Guzzman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 886
Default Early-1920s Marines

Hello everyone. Many thanks for your replies.

Here is a potted history of Deal which may be of interest.

In 1861 the RM Depot was established at Deal - at first in the East Barracks, then subsequently taking over North and South Barracks as well. The barracks had all previously been used by the Army. The takeover was completed by 1869 and the depot was used to train recruits to the RMLI.

In 1930 the Royal Naval School of Music moved into the East Barracks. The RN School of Music had been founded in Plymouth in 1903 but moved to Deal in 1930 and replaced the original depot band formed in 1891. It became the Royal Marine School of Music in 1950.

Deal was the main place of training for Royal Marines until Lympstone took over the training role during the Second World War. However Junior Marines continued to complete the first 12 weeks of training at Deal before moving to CTCRM - 229 (Junior) Troop were the last, in the Summer of 1977.

Deal was a prime candidate for closure at that time and a local campaign "to keep the marines in Deal" was launched. What they really wanted was to keep the RM Band/School of Music but in addition to them they also gained 41 CDO, who had recently left Malta and were reformed at Deal (there was apparently then another local campaign to have 41 CDO REMOVED from Deal!). They were based at Deal until disbanded in 1981. That left just the RM School of Music in residence until closure in 1996.

Pete
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 04-10-15, 09:13 AM
1664 1664 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 158
Default

The first picture shows an RMLI scout (WW1 or prewar?)

This is a real curiosity, when researching for Personal Distinctions I didn't find any reference to Marines qualifying as scouts, nor did I come across a photograph of one being worn. Are you able to enlarge the shoulder title?Thanks
John
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-10-15, 02:16 PM
Guzzman's Avatar
Guzzman Guzzman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 886
Default Early-1920s Marines

No problem re enlarging the image of the Scout. I'll do it later today and post it tonight.

Pete
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04-10-15, 07:35 PM
Guzzman's Avatar
Guzzman Guzzman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 886
Default Early-1920s Marines

Hello John

I have attempted to enlarge the following images as much as I can - any larger and they become too distorted. I have attached images of most of the insignia being worn in the hope that this might be of assistance. I didn't bother with the crossed rifles of his Marksman's badge as I didn't think it would help. I tried to enlarge his buttons but without success. I will be interested to see what conclusions you reach. Have you any idea (or guesses) as to date? No real clues on the back of the postcard either; it simply says 'To Lily. With Love from Jack'.

Pete
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Scan 4.jpg (37.9 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpeg Scan 1.jpeg (5.0 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpeg Scan 5.jpeg (7.6 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpeg Scan 3.jpeg (6.9 KB, 23 views)
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 04-10-15, 08:33 PM
1664 1664 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 158
Default

Pete
No obvious answer. Lots of RMLI SNCOs served with the volunteers prior to WW1 and I had wondered if he related to that, the badges are being worn on the right arm which suggests volunteers, regulars wore the marksman's badge on the left arm.
I'd hoped the shoulder title might give a clue - however can't make it out but am certain it is not RMLI. It wasn't unusual for the guys who served with the volunteers to keep their RMLI/RMA cap but wear the volunteers tunic. It may be a curved RND but is just as likely to be Rifle Brigade!
The cap looks a lot like the 1916 pattern, the cap badge is the easiest bit - typical RMLI.
The scout badge is the pattern for Scout Sergeant or 1st Class Scout and was worn in the infantry throughout WW1, discontinued in 1921.

Sorry can't pin it down further, fascinating image
Yours
John
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04-10-15, 08:37 PM
1664 1664 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 158
Default

Might be helpful to see the back of the card - was it taken in England or France? The kit is pristine and it is obviously in a studio - wonder if it is a prop uniform.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-10-15, 11:00 AM
Guzzman's Avatar
Guzzman Guzzman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 886
Default Early-1920s Marines

Hello John

Thanks for your input. I'll scan the back of the card later - don't think it will really help though. It simply states 'POST CARD' above 'Carte Postale - Postkarte'. The back is divided in two - above one half it says 'Communication - Mittell(?)ungen - Correspondance' and above the other it says 'Address - Addresse'. Where the stamp goes it says 'Stamp Here' and there is also a stylised 'K' superimposed on 'LTD'. Nothing to say where or when it was taken.

I agree that the shoulder title is not 'RMLI'. I've never seen a picture of an RMLI scout either. I had considered the possibility of it being a prop uniform but it fits too well and looks too smart. Most prop uniforms I've seen being worn on postcards just don't fit or look totally wrong. I suppose it is understandable that anyone posing for a picture for their loved ones would like to look smart.

Ultimately, as you say it is a mystery.

Regards

Pete
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-10-15, 11:47 AM
grumpy grumpy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,456
Default

I did the obvious check, and the jacket buttons confirm the photo is "right way round".

The scout badge is one of two mysteries, is it not? [The other being RMLI cap badge vs shoulder title].

I agree that I do not know of scouts in the RMLI, but we need to bear in mind that there was a deliberate commonality in many RMLI uniform aspects and the regular army. I can think of every good reason why the RMLI should indeed appoint scouts, who were very much in vogue in the years leading up to the war.
Another complication is the "first class" aspect. Unusual [but not impossible] for a soldier to be thus and still without rank or lance-rank.

Lastly, the scout badges were also worn by cavalry, not only infantry.

Nevertheless the photo is excellent, and unique. Never say never ........
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 29-12-19, 06:40 PM
Irv's Avatar
Irv Irv is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Freshwater IOW
Posts: 924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guzzman View Post
And here are a few pictures of individuals and smaller groups.
Some great photos showing use of the Brodrick cap after the 1923 amalgamation indicated by the use of the new cap badge. A picture showing the two bucket tunic in a post 1923 (RM) configuration. Not sure how I missed this old threat but it’s great!
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 01-01-20, 03:57 PM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 7,562
Default

A truly super portrait and particularly nice to see an original example of the recently much vaunted cloth Scout badge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Guzzman View Post
The two pictures shown below do not come from the same collection of photographs but I am including them simply because they are interesting!

The first picture shows an RMLI scout (WW1 or prewar?) and the second shows a member of the RMA and is dated August 1919.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05-01-20, 10:34 PM
Guzzman's Avatar
Guzzman Guzzman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 886
Default Early-1920s Marines

Nice to see this thread is still of interest to people.

If anyone is interested I still have many more images that I purchased as part of this group. I could post some more of them if you want.

Pete
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 06-01-20, 01:10 AM
Irv's Avatar
Irv Irv is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Freshwater IOW
Posts: 924
Default

Yes please Pete

Love to see more pictures from this period.

Regards
Irv
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 06-01-20, 02:15 PM
Guzzman's Avatar
Guzzman Guzzman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 886
Default Early-1920s Marines

I'll get some more images scanned on later today.

Pete
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:38 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.