Pals insignia

[KLR]

On another thread I remarked that as far as I could see in the War Office records, only the Liverpool Pals cap badge was officially issued by the WO. I wondered why the others were not. Needless to say, I have researched quite a lot about the Lpl Pals but I thought there might be scope for further research into all other the Pals' badges. I am the first to admit that I don't know a lot about the other Pals battalions.
I know of the various Pals books and I frequently go to Kew, but it's those of you with local knowledge that would be most important.
So if anybody is interested in helping me over this one I'd be very grateful, we could publish the results somewhere sometime.

Firstly, this is all the Pals that I know of.
Birmingham Pals 14, 15, 16th Warwickshire Regt
Liverpool Pals 17 – 20 King’s Liverpool Regt
Leeds Pals 15th West Yorkshire Regt

Wandsworth Pals 13th East Surrey Regt

Lonsdale Pals 11th Border Regt

Cardiff Pals 16th Bn Welsh regt


BUT, what about the Tyneside Irish and the T Scottish - do they count as "Pals" ??

Does anyone know about the design, authorisation and production of badges for any of these battalions.
Following suggestions of serious money and influence, who was behind these other battalions (I know the E of Lonsdale for 11th Border).
Incidentally, am I right in thinking that the Lonsdale Pals badge was the only other one (apart from Lpl) made in silver - and could anyone tell me who the maker was.

Julian

[wright241]

Wern't there Manchester Pals as well?

[Alan O]

Julian there were lots of other Pals Bns but only those you list had their own cap badges. You are ommitting the Manchester Pals also had a solid brass badge which is missing from reference books but Mancs collectors pay a lot of money for them anyway.

The Tyneside Scottish were a Pals Bn but the title was used again in 1937 when the Bn was re-raised as a DLI and then a Black Watch TF Bn.

The Tyneside Irish and Cardiff Pals bns' badges were shoulder title and collar badges as mentioned elsewhere on the forum.

Alan

[Voltigeur]

Hello julian, can this help?
Jo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pals_battalions

[Voltigeur]

Here are some info on Pals battalions.
Jo
Lonsdale Pals.
http://www.freewebs.com/granatloch/spike1a.html

Accrington Pals.
http://www.pals.org.uk/pals_e.htm
In particular the Officers' photograph.

Grimsby Chums.
http://www.eebo.freeserve.co.uk/chums.htm

[KLR]

I told you I didn't know much about the others !
Crikey Jo - I didn't know there were that many BUT am I right in thinking the only ones with their own cap badges are as listed above - though, yes, I do remember reading about the Manchester Pals badge (which initially surprised me as I believe they were also founded by Lord Derby) - Harribobs, have you any information for us ?
OK so we include Tyneside Scottish cap badges for 1st WW units too.

What I find fascinating (as you could guess from the hours I spend at Kew) is as much the origins, aiuthorisation, production etc of these badges as their actual design and variation.


If anyone wants to take on titles and collars for such a generic study, that would be great. (I personally only collect [KLR] cap badges so apart from KLR titles and collars [etc] of the KLR I don't know much about them generally).

[Peter Brydon]

Julian,
There was a most interesting 2 part article on " Kitcheners Army- Insignia of the locally raised Battalions " by Bob Quested in the Autumn 1985 and Spring1986 issues of the Crown Imperial magazine.

It lists the locally raised units and describes and/or illustrates their insignia.

Photos of a couple of pages attached.

I will photocopy the whole articles if you are interested

Peter

P.S. I wonder if anyone else wishes , like me ,that there were full indexes to the MHS Bulletins,Crown Imperial mags and the Military Hearldry Society`s Formation Sign

[Sonofacqms]

Peter, this is interesting, the right hand picture shows two distinctly different Leeds Pals cap badges, could you say what the information is on them. I know this has been mentioned in other threads as to which badge is correct, but this is the first time I have seen them illustrated together.

[KLR]

Yes please Peter - I have been through the Crown Imp volumes at the NAM library but must have missed this one.

So, might this have answers to the questions of authorisation etc ??

PS
I couldn't find any indices to Crn Imp or Formation Sign (I've [tediously] gone through all the first lot of roneo'd ones on my last visit to NAM, I'll try to get through the 'bound magazines' next time !).
But there are indices for the MHS Bulletin.

PPS
There is also the following article I've just remembered
Langton, BR, 1974, Badges of the Service Battalions (Kitchener’s Army) 1914-1919, Bulletin of the Military Historical Society, Vol.25, No.97, xx xx

(if anyone could fill me in with the page numbers, I'd be grateful)

[Jibba Jabba]

There are not special grimsby chums badges, clearly they werent thinking about collectors 90 years on.

The 10 title in the book is a fantasy badge.

[wright241]

Originally Posted by 8thfoot

Julian,
P.S. I wonder if anyone else wishes , like me ,that there were full indexes to the MHS Bulletins,Crown Imperial mags and the Military Hearldry Society`s Formation Sign

Peter,
I am currently painstakingly going through all the MHS articles, volumes that I have and doing just that. I am using the reference etc, heading, plus a very brief summary of whats the article is about - a regiment, badges, uniform, a battle, notes etc etc. Plus, if there if there is a follow up letter - as in the Cavalry arm badges - I include a pointer between the 2 (or more) as well. So far I have completed about 60% of the 1965-1970 volume plus another dozen odd issues that I have (some are pre-WWII..., the others are from the 1950's). Once Eddies volume gets here, I'll work on that as well.
I am also going to the same thing with Military Illustrated issues 1 to 60+.
If someone will let me know (once I have finished in about 3 - 4weeks) whether you want me to post these or send into the Forum administrator or whatever.... no problem. And before anyone asks, they are currently in an MSExcel 2003 format (but can obviously saved as a .csv file for importing into any XL version or subsequent word processing).
If someone else is doing this with the MHS bulletins, pls let know - assuming that everyone will be able to use it - I'll stop.
david

[Peter Brydon]

Sonofacqms,

Unfortunatley ( isnt it always the case ) in the article there is generally no direct reference in the text to the illlustrations so no explanation is given to why two badges are illustrated, the implication is presumably that they were both considered by the author to be genuine.

Please dont forget that the articles were written 22 years ago and I would suggest that a lot more knowledge and information is available now than was the case then. ( one cannot however say that there were not so many restikes and spurious items about then than there are now)

JJ
Wasnt the insignia of the Grimsby Chums the subject of a thread here a couple of months ago when what was thought to be a spurious item was listed on E bay ?

---------------------------------

One of the reasons why this hobby is so fascinating ( and one of the reasons I dont comment on the authenticity of individual badges ) is that in my opinion no one can say with 100% certainty what was not worn ( easier to say from known examples from impecable sources,photographs and personal memories what was worn.

I recall that in the 1970`s a member of the Merseyside Branch of the MHS ( when that branch existed ) brought along to a meeting a photo of a member of the 10th Kings ( Liverpool Scottish ) who was clearly wearing a brass title "L.S.".

He had presumably acquired a Lovat Scouts shoulder title which he had put on his uniform. Can we say that the Liverpool Scottish never wore such a title when there is photographic evidence that one member did ?

P.B.

[Peter Brydon]

David,

You are undertaking an enormous task, you have a lot more patience than I have.

I am computer illiterate, but wonder if the indexes in the bound volumes and the seperate indexes which have been published could be scanned with one of the programmes which would allow them ( the scans )to be edited ?

I have been through all the Bulletins and ( it may not surprise you ) listed all the articles and letters relating to the Kings Liverpool Regiment. That took some time. To compile a complete index is something which should be most welcome.

Regards

Peter

[wright241]

Peter,
I've already done that with the indexes that are available. But they don't always cover the "trivia" such as a letter referring to an article etc. I also found that the article "header" wasn't always meaningful in what the article was about. I will persevere. I'm up at Airbus/Hamburg for 3 weeks a month, after about 4 in the afternoon, its either flight simulation or badges. Its a 50/50 choice. Badges wins...........
I rigged up a scale model of the Cutty Sark once - 1.5 metres x 1 metre - took me about 13 months to do - I made the pulleys as well. What can I say, it must be in the genes.
When I have done as much as I can I'll let you know.
david

[alan g]

Hi Julian the lonsdale silver badges were made by Sebastion Garrard in London .