Help me with this 17th motto

[Uomo del monte]

Hello,

this is my first post here, I hope this is the correct place for asking help with my motto (and sorry if my english isn't perfect).

I bought this motto more than a decade ago at a flea market near my hometown in northern Italy and it is one of the few british militaria items I have. I admit i knew zero about it at the time, but it was cheap, had a cool design and was really nicely done with a lot of small details...
After I got it I did some research and showed it around but nobody seems to have incountered this design on this type of motto before: the round decoration that hold the clasp seems to be completely out of place, somebody tried to explain it as some kind of veteran mount but I never had seen another researching on the internet...
I hope you guys can help me identifying it.

I took a picture with an EKI for scale, I'll take better picture if needed.

Thanks for now!

[Bill A]

Hello Uomo del monte, welcome to the Forum. Your account is active and open for posts.

[Lancer 17]

Hello Uomo

What you have here is a FAKE 17th Lancers arm Motto which is known in the regiment as a Chadd.

To help you out the Regiment has cap and beret Mottoes, it is always referred to as a Motto with in the Regiment. The cap and beret Mottoes have flat ends to the scroll with the OR GLORY and it is wider than it is high. Forget the circle, this has been added later and the ends of the Motto scroll have been extended to make them attach to the circle.

The Chadd is taller than it is wide and the ends of the Motto scroll is swallow tailed, like yours. This would be Chad is sometimes referred to as a "Long Boned" Chadd, however it was never used by the Regiment.

This was faked in the 1970's and they just keep on coming up around the trade.

Your fake Motto has been attached to the circle with a pin on the back to be worn as a sweetheart.

I hope that this helps.

Regards

Phil.

[Uomo del monte]

Hi Phil, thanks for the feedback.

So this was made after the 70s from a reproduction motto. My question now would be: was something a veteran would wear or is just a gimmick to increase the value? Honestly I don't know for how much original mottos sale but it seems a lot of work for me

Thanks again!

[mac mcconnell]

Morning Uomo

This looks very much like a sweetheart broach based on a Bore war design but a cheaper one possibly locally made?. 17/21st Lancers spent a lot of time in Italy 1944 - 1945 .

The skull is based on the Firmin 1865 Arm motto Patten but I am guessing much smaller

some measurements would help

I have a similar hallmarked one 40mm across outside edge.

30mm inside edge also making the motto 30mm.


What Phil has said in regards to fake Arm mottos Mottos is correct but I am guessing this is much smaller and not a fake and something very different.


I have included a picture of mine and the Arm motto from which the skull design derives from.

Best Mac.

[Rockape]

Don't normally comment on regular cavalry items but this one piqued my interest.

The symbols around the circle depict English, Scottish and Irish charms and the horseshoe caps the goodluck theme. The piece looks quality and I would be surprised if this had not been privately purchased for the benefit of a loved one.

[Uomo del monte]

Originally Posted by mac mcconnell

Morning Uomo

This looks very much like a sweetheart broach based on a Bore war design but a cheaper one possibly locally made?. 17/21st Lancers spent a lot of time in Italy 1944 - 1945 .

The skull is based on the Firmin 1865 Arm motto Patten but I am guessing much smaller

some measurements would help

I have a similar hallmarked one 40mm across outside edge.

30mm inside edge also making the motto 30mm.


What Phil has said in regards to fake Arm mottos Mottos is correct but I am guessing this is much smaller and not a fake and something very different.


I have included a picture of mine and the Arm motto from which the skull design derives from.

Best Mac.

Hello Mac, thanks for replying.

Measures are roughly the same, I'm attaching some pictures for you to see.
Also:
- the circle looks made from two pieces, the whole ensemble is quite light so I'm expecting it's hollow inside
- the metal, both from the circle and the motto, appears to be non magnetic (in fairness I've tried with a weak fridge magnet so it could be different with a better magnet, I'll get a better one if it is worth trying)

[yorkstone]

Iron cross first class is a nice looking piece is it maker marked pin or screw back also is it magnetic sadly lots of repro around these days.
Regards

Stephen

[Uomo del monte]

Originally Posted by yorkstone

Iron cross first class is a nice looking piece is it maker marked pin or screw back also is it magnetic sadly lots of repro around these days.
Regards

Stephen

L55, pin and magnetic

[GriffMJ]

Mac is correct...

[yorkstone]

L55 made by J E Hammer & Sohne of Geringswalde

Information taken from LT Col Angola’s book?

Regards

Stephen

[Marcus H]

L/55 is Rudolf Wächtler & Lange, Mittweida.

[Luke H]

Any chance you can discuss your NAZI badges on another forum or by PM please.

This is then British & Commonwealth Badge Forum and this thread is about a nice 17th/21st sweetheart badge.

Next time a coin, pencil, cigarette or even a ruler would be better for scale. I for one do not know how big an iron cross is and have no plans to find out.

Thanks.

[yorkstone]

Pm sent Luke

Stephen