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  #151  
Old 28-11-20, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Chipper View Post
My guess would be it's not referring to the NZ badge, as I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, 1914 would be too early for the NZ transports to have sailed??
The first two transports , Moeraki and Maunganui , departed on 15th August 1914. A further convoy of ten vessels (including Maunganui on second trip) departed on 16 October 1914.

The debate mentioning "those serving in merchant vessels" was in March 1915 , but isn't clear whether this is about what were termed "home boats" (those involved in import/export from Britain) or Commonwealth vessels.

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  #152  
Old 28-11-20, 02:19 PM
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OK, thanks Mike, I should have know that actually, my Grandfather served on the Marama from 1915 - 1918, which was a hospital ship.

Cheers, Tim
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  #153  
Old 28-11-20, 02:39 PM
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Hi Tim ,

This is all a 'learning experience' for me and most of the information I got from a couple of NZ sites.

Merchant marine

Troopships


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  #154  
Old Yesterday, 09:32 AM
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Hi Chipper and Mike

Great to follow this one! Sadly no, Bay is no more and my guess is that most of his "products" are now in junk shops, dealers or on eBay...

Just picking up this thread, I found (but now can't find again....sigh) a newspaper mention of the NZ Govt making "concessions to seamen" (ohhhh...errrrr missus!) about granting them a badge to wear.

The date is/was 1916 and there is also a file held at National Archives in Wellington that has the mention of "war service badges". The date range is 1916-1950 so would I be wrong in suggesting that this date of 1916 is the date for the introduction of the HMNZ Transports badge?

That would fit nicely into the introduction of conscription (at which time a badge would be a pretty useful thing to have...) and also allow time for a sample 1914 Admiralty badge/design to wend its way back to NZ.

When I (eventually!) find that mention I'll post a snip of it, promise, and maybe get someone to see what that file contains. I have a contact who might oblige!
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  #155  
Old Yesterday, 09:51 AM
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Yay! From the New Zealand Times, 15 April, 1916. The arm badges (or "armlets") referred to were much despised and many refused to wear them, calling them a "cheap gesture".

Of special displeasure would have been the Returned Soldier's red armlet with a yellow "G /crown/ R" on it as the colour was described in various sources as "Turkey red".....
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  #156  
Old Yesterday, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
The date is/was 1916 and there is also a file held at National Archives in Wellington that has the mention of "war service badges". The date range is 1916-1950 so would I be wrong in suggesting that this date of 1916 is the date for the introduction of the HMNZ Transports badge?
Initially when conscription was introduced deck officers, engineers, seamen , cooks and stewards in New Zealand had to apply for individual exemptions (unlike the British ) but this was changed after pressure from the unions.

"Men not in uniform sometimes felt self-conscious; in Britain, the officers’ union, the Merchant Service Guild, demanded badges for its members to denote their service."

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Originally Posted by dumdum View Post

The arm badges (or "armlets") referred to were much despised and many refused to wear them, calling them a "cheap gesture".
I also recently read (will try and find it again) that the badges were unpopular as they had to be applied for which many did not bother to do. (Possible reason so few are around ?).


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Last edited by mike_vee; Yesterday at 12:49 PM.
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  #157  
Old Yesterday, 12:48 PM
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Question Timeline

As more information is uncovered it gives a basic timeline regarding the various badges which "may" make things a bit clearer. This is more about dates rather than the two different badges and the style/crown anomalies .

26th December 1914

Admiralty memo giving a badge the title "Admiralty War Service Badge".

This is assumed to be the enamel OWS 1914 badge , it was issued to shipyard workers “whose services were indispensable for the rapid completion of HM Ships and Armaments”.

Monday 15 March 1915

Parliamentary question about granting War service badges to those who are engaged in our merchant ships.

Note : "similar to the War service badges which are now granted by the Admiralty to those serving in merchant vessels which they have chartered or requisitioned".

This seems to imply that there was already a separate War service badge for those " serving in merchant vessels " as opposed to "shipyard workers". (could this be the 'silver' Admiralty Badge ?)

15 April, 1916

From the article in post #115 and the information I found it appears that the HMNZ Transports badge was introduced when the Military Service Act (conscription) came into force on 2 March 1916.


Food for thought !


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  #158  
Old Yesterday, 09:34 PM
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Hi Mike and others

Great that we might be finally able to piece together some of this! There is still that file that might provide more information so I'll chase this along.

Shame that they are not just "down the road" and I could wander in....
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  #159  
Old Yesterday, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_vee View Post
Initially when conscription was introduced deck officers, engineers, seamen , cooks and stewards in New Zealand had to apply for individual exemptions (unlike the British ) but this was changed after pressure from the unions.

"Men not in uniform sometimes felt self-conscious; in Britain, the officers’ union, the Merchant Service Guild, demanded badges for its members to denote their service."



I also recently read (will try and find it again) that the badges were unpopular as they had to be applied for which many did not bother to do. (Possible reason so few are around ?).


.
Regarding the "armlets", the word "unpopular" is a nice way of putting it! They were very much so. The advent of the Silver War Badge and the Returned Soldier's Association badge seems to have been much more acceptable.

The four basic types (of which I have two) of armlet were:

1) Red with gold crown, Returned Soldier
2) Drabjean (khaki?) with red crown, men enlisted waiting to be called up
3) French-grey with green crown, men who have offered themselves for active service but been rejected
4) Light-blue with white crown men engaged in an exempted industry

With each of these armlets (or "badges" as they were also called) went a small postcard sized document similar to the SWB cert.

The certs have hardly survived at all and I finally traded for one after a long time actively seeking one!
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