Dragoon Guards - 3rd

[steve149c]

Hi all,

I have in my possesion a "3rd Dragoon Guards" bi-metal badge. It has 2 brazing holes on the scroll, but none on the crown. However the crown is definately a seperate piece. Is this a restrike? If it is it's a very very good one as it came from L.Shotton. My feeling from having it in my hand is that it is real. So therefore is it possible to join the two metals without brazing holes? Also how do brazing holes work?

Thanks

Steve

[John Mulcahy]

Steve

One of the forum members (Steve from NZ) will be able to help answer your questions as he has written on the subject quite a bit on an other forum.

It is perfectly possible to join two metals without these holes. Indeed although they are more common on earlier bi-metal badges up untill the 1930's there were certainly some manufacturers prior to this fabricating bi-metal badges without the need for sweat holes, or indeed pinned joints.

These holes are better called "sweat holes" as they have nothing to do with brazing. I have corresponded with a few on-line discussion boards on the subject of metal fabrication history to try to understand the processes used. Based on those discussions I do not think that the overlaid metal was actually brazed onto the main badges because the brazing flame is extremely hot and would have melted the white metal alloy.

Brazing was used to fit the loops and sliders but I do not think that it would have been used for fixing WM alloys to brass (or vice-versa).

It is more probable that a process such as soldering was used to fix the overlay. Sweat (or weep) holes helped in allowing hot gas to escape. But the holes may also be where imperfections are forced to solidify last ensuring a high quality bond (lack of porosity, cold shuts, and other common metal joining issues).

Sweat holes may also been used to assist in manufacture by providing an area where the flux was used for joining a controlled place to run out of and localize into a single area for cleanup. Speculation is that they (the holes in the back) may also have been there to provide the fabricator a location to apply the solder, controlling the amount and limiting any excess at the interfaces which also facilitates cleanup at the joint.

As you can see a lot of speculation here but the main point is that you can join two dissimiliar metals without these holes. There are several known example of genuine bi-metal badges from pre-1922 that did not use sweat holes in their production . Someone more knowledgable than I on the 3rd D.G should be able to provide more comment on this badge.

Steve(NZ) anything to add on fabrication methods?

John

[steve149c]

Thanks John,

Makes more sense now, hopefully Steve will be able to shed more light on this,

Cheers

Steve

[Alan O]

This are my reference pictures. I really, really don't like that one as it just looks too modern for a WW1 era badge.

Alan

[steve149c]

Al,

What makes you feel it is too modern? It may have been struck just before the amalgamation of the 3rd and 6th? I think that there are many many many different original strikings of these badges, look at the Fleur-de-lys. On your two the feathers don't touch the scroll, but on K&K for the 10th Royal Hussars (765) they do. It's the same Fleur-de-lys, so they must have had several different ones, and depending on which company made them is which fleur-de-lys went with which scroll.

I'm happy with it being genuine, and so was Lew.

Cheers

Steve

[Alan O]

Steve,

The reason that I wold pass on it is that it is just so similiar to the Royal Hussars badge made post 1968. The solid backed scroll being one piece with the rest of the badge is typical of a post WW2 badge. It is usual to have a sweat hole behind the crown on badges from that era (even on the 'new' (3/6th) regimental badge) The 3rd DG amalgamated in 1922 and while there was some delay in losing the old pattern badges, I think that all of the regiment wore the same standard badge by the end of the 1920s.

You are quite right about the style of feathers as there are several designs for the 10th hussars as well. The 3rd DG also have a variation with a 'round topped' 3 rather than the flat topped versions shown in my pictures.


Alan

[jeanpit-frenchy]

the 3rd dragoon guards from my grand father ....

genuine 100% WW1

[steve149c]

Thanks Al, Merci Jean,

Makes me start to ponder on alot of my badges Not to worry, I'm still learning. I just hope that my Pembrokeshire Badge from Lew is ok, it should be here in 2 days

Steve

[John Mulcahy]

Regardless of whether the badge that started the discussion is genuine or not, this thread has confirmed to me the importance of understanding construction techniques. It can help one understand if a badge is "right for its period".

[Luke H]

Steve,

Your example doesn't do it for me I'm afraid, it also has the dreaded 'dumpy' feather plumes.

Luke

[jim a]

I just walked past a 3rd dragoons at our local gunshow... it looked pretty good to me but the slider was marked AMMO. U.K. I couldn't remeber if this was a good or bad feature so i left it alone... did i make a big mistake or what?

[Alan O]

Ammo UK is a mark made on modern copies. They sell a mixture of repro old patterns and some modern designs which soliders sometines wear in favour of the issued staybrite ones.
If they were asking more than £3 for it then you did the right thing as a genuine 3rd DG is worth at least £20.

Alan

[Bantam]

Alan,
In my collection of ASC,RASC,etc collection I was given by a serving R.L.C. Territorial an Ammo badge worn by her.Would you agree that providing that it was not above the £3.00 or thereabout, that it as a specimen of a worn badge it should be included in a collection of The Regimental Badges ?
Regards,
Bantam

[Alan O]

Private purchase badges are a difficult call because while Ammo UK made lots of designs not all were worn. Some PRIs also stock other firms products as well. Some regts embrace them fully and everyone buys their own (some Cavalry regts and Para Regt spring to mind), some simply do not except for the odd individual (it is rare but not unheard of for a RSIGNALS soldier to wear anything other than the issue badge), and some units only wear them at a certain rank (QOY ORs wear the issue a/a badge and the NCOs wear the bought bi-metal one). You do get a lot of bi-metal Devon and Dorset badges but I have never saw one being worn by a serving solider especially as latterly the Bn painted all their a/a badges black for normal wear with Combats.

The problem is where do you stop collecting!

Alan

[Bantam]

Hi Alan,
Fair comment the Ammo badge was given to me just prior or post 1st Gulf War so it wasn't a recent acquirement.
I suppose it is up to the individual collector on what they want to collect.I totally agree with you on where do you stop.I started collecting Welsh stuff and when the material dried up took to collecting their Affiliated Regiments and when that was exhausted moved to A.S.C and its successors.
Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.
Bantam