Austrian Knots- cadet rank

[badjez]

I have tried digging into the use of Austrian knots and other rank insignia by officer cadets, but without too much success. I can find plenty of information about changes in their use post-1945 but nothing about earlier. I know they were worn both at Sandhurst and Woolwich pre-war as photos exist on-line, but I cannot locate any 'Authority' as such.

Dress Regs 1911 and 1934 refer to clothing for Gentleman Cadets but nothing on rank.

I've attached a photo borrowed on-line to give an indication of the ranks badges I'm interested in.


Can someone point me in the right direction please?

Stephen.

[Alan O]

The modern UOTC use of the design varies from OTC to OTC. In Southampton UOTC the recruits wore nothing on the shoulders, when a cadet passed MTQ 1 they got a single bar. The JUOs wore the knot over that and the SUO alone wore the knot and 2 bars. The instructor one is new to me.

Other OTCs had 2 bars for MTQ2 as with your Cambridge one shown in the picture. MTQ system has been renamed but the principle is the same. It all depends on the OTC practice.

[badjez]

Alan, thank you.

So far as pre-ww2 practice goes it appears we have stumped the panel- somebody must know something.


Stephen.

[badjez]

Resurrected from the depths:

I'm still looking for further information, and pictures of the various Officer Cadet rank insignia.

All offers of help welcomed.

Stephen.

[oc14]

The system as I know it is as Alan states i.e 1 bar for MTQ1, 2 for MTQ2 etc. The "Instructor" wording indicates that the wearer has completed MOI (Method of Instruction), BIT (Basic Instructional Techniques) or DIT (Defence Instructional Techniques) course.

PL

[badjez]

Paul,
Thanks. What about pre-ww2 cadet rank at Woolwich etc. I know nothing about that era.

How about Cadet Colour Sgts, Corporals etc. There must be about 10-15 different badges lurking out there somewhere when No1, No2 & Battle/Combat Dress are considered.

Stephen.

[cavalryman]

Hi Stephen, This company make and sell quite a few of the different rank slides you refer to. only the one's that say add to cart are available, believe me I tried phoning about others. hope this helps. regards John https://www.ecsnaith.com/rank-slides...?limit=100&p=3

[badjez]

Thanks John,
Now I'm even more confused as they list titles for Under Officers, Junior Under Officers and Captains...would the latter be PSI or what?

Stephen.

[Alan O]

They make them themselves so they can create any rank to sell to collectors.

Most OTC PSIs and officers are either Regular on posting or TA attached: so wear their parent insignia. The Permanent Staff might choose to wear an OTC rank slide but it would be uncommon.

With the OTCs now increasingly focussed on gaining TA commissions you do see OTC 2Lts. It is possible that a OTC commissioned officer takes up a TA post and retains their OTC insignia. I do know of cases where this has happened in the past.

[Mike Jackson]

This doesn't really help, but here's an example of a JUO at RMA Sandhurst in 1962. Mike
RMAS_Rhine Coy_Inspection_63 query.Detail.03.jpg

[Postwarden]

Interesting photo. He appears to be wearing the RMA Sandhurst cloth arm title on service dress. Or do my eyes deceive me?

Jon

[cavalryman]

Hi Stephen, Sorry I cannot answer that, each unit seems to be different with some having Under Officer, Junior Under Officer, Senior Under Officer, Lt, 2Lt, and the MTQ's 1, 2 & 3, while other units have very little. Alan O, as this company is part of the FIRMIN group I thought all the ranks shown were legit. regards John

[Alan O]

Legit? If you order them from the same supplier as the UOTCs get them from are the genuine or reproduction. The fact they have DPM which is no longer worn by the OTC may be old stock or may be made more recently than 2012.

[cavalryman]

Hi Alan O, I would say genuine IF from the OFFICIAL supplier, have to agree with you on the DPM rank slides being obsolete. regards John

[badjez]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is confused.

As to DPM, I cannot find them having been approved- at one time OC wore no rank insignia on Combat Dress at all.

Stephen.