Unidentified Unit Sign

[Mike Jackson]

c 1942 - An unidentified sign painted on the front armour of a British Covenanter Tank. I tried this a year or so ago - can any sharp-eyed Member with imagination work out what this might be. The image is distorted by the camera angle against the slope of the armour - so it's probably a circular disc. But what is the design? Ideas please! Mike
Unident Fmn Sign on Covenanter.03.jpgUnident Fmn Sign on Covenanter.01.jpg

[Hussar100]

If it's a Covenanter then it's a UK based formation. Covenanter was a useless piece of rubbish and even with the desperate need for tanks at that time the War Office wouldn't send them to the Western Desert Forces.

[grey_green_acorn]

Definitely a Covenanter. Census numbers allocated for those produced by LMS Railway works were T7095 - T7194. T7195 was the mild steel turret-less pilot model.
As said by Hussar100 the Covenanter was never used operationally although 1,771 were produced. It equipped UK-based armoured divisions for training until 1943.

Tim

[54Bty]

Not sure how accurate this is from the image, but it may help (someone).

Marc

[grey_green_acorn]

Some Covenanters were used by the Polish Armoured Division for training in the UK.
Could it be a Polish sign?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fMvc_TOstLE

Tim

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

Some Covenanters were used by the Polish Armoured Division for training in the UK.
Could it be a Polish sign?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fMvc_TOstLE

Tim

That's possible. The majority of them went to 1 Div after Dunkirk. A few went to Egypt on trials but were found wanting - desperately. AFAIK this piece of junk was declared obsolete in 1943, just 2 years after it was built. Compare that to the likes of Comet, Centurion (in particular), Chieftain or Challenger 1. Mind you the pedigree wasn't sound. It was a development of the A15 Crusader which was barely able to function within its remit.

That's not getting the OP an answer to his formation patch question. Anybody got any ideas? I reiterate my point that it must have been a UK based unit - post Dunkirk.

[Mike Jackson]

Here's a mixture (MH 1135) of 1 Polish Armd Div Covenanters (four road wheels) and Crusaders (five road wheels). I cannot make out the marking on the lead Covenanter. Mike
1 Polish Armd Div tanks.01.jpg

[lettman]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

c 1942 - An unidentified sign painted on the front armour of a British Covenanter Tank. I tried this a year or so ago - can any sharp-eyed Member with imagination work out what this might be. The image is distorted by the camera angle against the slope of the armour - so it's probably a circular disc. But what is the design? Ideas please! Mike
Attachment 118472Attachment 118473

The marking looks suspiciously like a knuckle-duster (aka a brass knuckle). Don't know where that observation leads us, however!

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by lettman

The marking looks suspiciously like a knuckle-duster (aka a brass knuckle). Don't know where that observation leads us, however!

That was my first thought, but, then I thought I might be thinking too much into it. Maybe the Tanks were to 'Punch' the way forward.

Marc

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

Here's a mixture (MH 1135) of 1 Polish Armd Div Covenanters (four road wheels) and Crusaders (five road wheels). I cannot make out the marking on the lead Covenanter. Mike
Attachment 118502

These Poles were training in the UK alongside the UK's 1 Armd Div. The only Covenanters to leave the UK went out on trials to several locations, mostly Egypt. These trials were unsuccessful.

The availability of Covenanters also showed a huge flaw in UK war manufacturing policy in that large numbers of an untested and seriously flawed AFV were produced because certain protocols hadn't been adhered to, i.e. test prototypes produced and trialled before production started in earnest. This mistake wasn't repeated.

Some Covenanters were eventually used overseas but not as gun tanks; as mobile artillery OPs.

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by lettman

The marking looks suspiciously like a knuckle-duster (aka a brass knuckle). Don't know where that observation leads us, however!

That's the best idea yet! If properly armoured tanks could be linked to an armoured fist (RAC badge and 6 Armd Div), so logically a badly armoured, useless tank would justify a knuckleduster? Mike

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

That's the best idea yet! If properly armoured tanks could be linked to an armoured fist (RAC badge and 6 Armd Div), so logically a badly armoured, useless tank would justify a knuckleduster? Mike

The formation sign wouldn't be dictated by the type of tank in service mate.

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by Hussar100

The formation sign wouldn't be dictated by the type of tank in service mate.

I was thinking a unit sign, not a formation sign. However, take a look at the formation sign for the WW2 British 3rd Armoured Group. Mike

[Peter Brydon]

Compliments of the season to everyone.

Threads like this one show what the Forum is ( in my opinion ) all about.

P.B.

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

I was thinking a unit sign, not a formation sign. However, take a look at the formation sign for the WW2 British 3rd Armoured Group. Mike

A unit sign wouldn't be in that position though. Tac recognition ID and callsign boards would normally be on the turret, usually on the sides or side kit bins. Callsign boards were on the back although I believe they were a post war innovation and they've been taken a stage further now with the c/s plastered all over the vehicle.

I note the 3rd Armoured Group formation sign. Did you know that the War Office refused permission for it to be used when it was at the suggestion stage? IWM have the details here.

Units were usually identified by a number in WW2 in any case; I found a chart of them yesterday. Some units had other distinctions if you knew what to look for, like the RTR's "All seeing eye" or the use of town names from various regions of the UK for some units which would be on the tool bins just above the catwalks.

I've seen so many formation signs over the last 24 hours my head's bursting.