Le Regiment de la Chaudiere - Shoulder Titles and Helmet Flashes

[chaudiere1944]

Hi Jo,

He definitely will be on the road to riches...considering he charges $34.95 for Shipping!

Mike

[chaudiere1944]

Great little find today at the Etobicoke show.
Mike

[chaudiere1944]

Hi Bill,

It was a pleasure to finally meet you today at the CSMMI show.

As I mentioned this title went last week in the neighbourhood of 40Cdn...I had not seen this backing on a Chaudiere Title before and did not bid. The ad said it had been put in a collection right after the war.

Questions : Is the back what is referred to as the 'Starch' back? What is your opinion as to authenticity?

Best,
Mike

[Bill A]

Hello Mike, Was great to put a face to a name. Nice to meet you in person.
The title that you have imaged is not the starch back issue. It is similar in construction, but not in quality. The pattern of title that you illustrate is a bit of a mystery. The quality, as can be seen, is not the best. This vendor is selling many other similar construction titles that were available during the war, but the provenance is not known.

[Bill A]

From LAC documents: First issue of Régiment de la Chaudiere shoulder titles were acquired in the spring of 1941. Scully supplied 500 pairs at 24¢ per. The first issue was regimentally procured, before the government authorized the unit titles. The regiment was eventually reimbursed for the cost.
This is odd, as 500 pairs would not even be a complete issue for the unit. They would have needed another order simply to kit out each soldier. Let alone any extra pairs.

[John_Zwolle]

Hi, as a collector of ww2 items I was able to purchase a shoulder title and badge of Le Regiment de la Chaudiere recently. I am particularly interested in this Canadian regiment, because it liberated the Dutch town of Zwolle (where I live) in 1945.
I wonder if some one of you could help me to determine whether they are WW2 or post war?
Thanks a lot in advance!

[chaudiere1944]

Hi Bill,

At .24c per pair that is quite an amazing appreciation considering what an authentic Chaudiere Title can fetch. Who would have thought back in 1941 that you could have such a return on your investment?

Some of my thoughts on the procurement of only 500 pairs include this process:

1) I know the Regiment in October 1939, had only 381 recruits mobilized on strength when recruiting had been suspended. (Stacy -Six Years of War, pg. 54 & pg 72)

2) At the time they were in the 2nd Division, 5th Brigade and were still a Machine Gun Regiment. (Stacy - pg.45)

3a) Shortages for French speaking Regiments were rampant not due to volunteers but rather due to recruitment selection criteria that prevented their enrolment: such as being married, overage, poor physique or medically unfit. (Copp- The Brigade pg.17)

3b) Precedence in the Province of Quebec for French Speaking recruiting was given to the Royal 22e Regiment.(Le Regiment de la Chaudiere - Castonguay & Ross 1983., pg 119)

4) The 3rd Division was created in May, 1940 and the Chaudiere's were transferred and converted into an Infantry Regiment in the 3rd Division the 8th Brigade.

5) The Regiment transferred to Sussex New Brunswick in November 1940 under strength. This is when my Grandfather transferred into the Regiment from the RCA as the Chaudiere sent out an appeal to any French speaking personnel to transfer to them.

6) I have my Grandfather's Regimental Company Photo that was taken in Sussex N.B. in June 1941 that shows them wearing Shoulder Titles.

7) The Regiment sailed from Halifax for Gourock, Scotland on July 21, 1941 and arrived later on in July.

My Theory: Since the Regiment was originally a Machine Gun Regiment my thought is that the various other French Speaking Infantry Regiments including the Royal 22e Regiment of the 1st Division; Le Regiment de Maisonneuve and Les Fusiliers Mont Royal (who had been sent to Iceland) of the 2nd Division poached or drained some of the operational personel from the Chaudiere's because of their precedence and their need for personnel as they went overseas first. It could help explain the purchase of only 500 Titles.

Further, due to the past problem and history of the Regiment in recruiting and more then likely losing substantial personnel to the other French Speaking Regiments; it had to source recruits from New Brunswick (Members who could speak French also came from Ontario, Nova Scotia, Manitoba and Saskatchewan) it speaks to the chronic problem the Regiment faced with being under strength and again a possibility for the 500 Titles.

Oddly the Regiment in its history during the Second World War not only had the CASF Regiment known as Le 1er Battalion (Sept. 39-45) , but it also had the CAOF Regiment known as Le 3e Battalion (June 1945- April 1946), and it also had a 3rd Regiment that was stationed back in Canada and known as Le 2e Battalion(1940-1946)...this 2e Regiment had however only 11 Officers and 174 Enlisted Ranks at it's zenith in October 1945. ( Le Regiment de la Chaudiere Castonguay and Ross, 1983., pgs 365-432)


Another thought: One of the reasons I think we see such a wide variety in Canadian and British made and constructed Chaudiere Titles is because of these 3 Battalions. Some of the cruder looking Titles I think belonged to this 2e Regiment?


Any opinions???

Sorry for the long post...when I initially began to write this it was supposed to be brief.

Best,
Mike

[chaudiere1944]

Hi John,

As I am sure you know but for the benefit of other Forum members....The very famous Private Leo Major (now regrettably deceased) from Le Regiment de la Chaudiere single handedly Liberated your town and for this action he received the Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM). It would have been his 2nd of the War but he refused his first during the Battle of the Scheldt because Field Marshall Montgomery was going to give it to him and he thought he was incompetent. He later in the Korean War received another DCM...so officially he had a DCM with Bar...but in reality he really should have a DCM with 2 Bars. In my Opinion he should have received a Victoria Cross for the Zwolle action but it appears his earlier snub of Montgomery played a part in that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Major


To answer your questions:

The Shoulder Title is definitely a Post War variant...if you compare it to my very first post in this thread it is a match to 1 of the 2 post war variants I have submitted.

The Cap Badge picture is quite blurry but I can see where the 'Scully' makers mark is and it is in the right place. These Cap Badges were also manufactured post war so it is difficult to accurately or definitively date them.

Mike

[John_Zwolle]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your answers. I understand from all the posts that I have to look for a canvas shoulder title to be sure that it's WW2.
Are there any makers marks that were only used during WW2 or can you never definitively date these cap badges?

The municipality of Zwolle this year finally decided to honour Leo Major with his own street : the Leo Majorlaan. Coming from the village of Wythmen he entered Zwolle through this street 64 years before. Unfortunately, Leo Major did not live to see it, but his widow and some children and grandchildren were present during the festivities on april 14th 2009.
http://www.rtvoost.nl/nieuws/?nid=95811

John

[Bill A]

Hi Mike, Here are some thoughts about your post:


2) At the time they were in the 2nd Division, 5th Brigade and were still a Machine Gun Regiment. (Stacy - pg.45)

The period of time the Chaud’s were mitrailleuses was very short. They were mobilized 5 Sept 1940, and redesignated as an infantry battalion (rifle) 7 Nov 1940. This was long before the unit obtained titles.
(Note: there were two types of infantry battalions in the Canadian army at the beginning of the war. They were rifle battalions and maching gun battalions, or more simply the rifles were the standard infantry battalion and mg battalions were mg / heavy mortar support.)(Tonner On Active Service, and Grodzinski, Operational Handbook for the First Canadian Army)

4) The 3rd Division was created in May, 1940 and the Chaudiere's were transferred and converted into an Infantry Regiment in the 3rd Division the 8th Brigade.

See note under 2.


6) I have my Grandfather's Regimental Company Photo that was taken in Sussex N.B. in June 1941 that shows them wearing Shoulder Titles.

This photographic evidence would show the privately acquired titles. (Which within weeks the cost of which, was paid for by DND.)

My Theory: Since the Regiment was originally a Machine Gun Regiment my thought is that the various other French Speaking Infantry Regiments including the Royal 22e Regiment of the 1st Division; Le Regiment de Maisonneuve and Les Fusiliers Mont Royal (who had been sent to Iceland) of the 2nd Division poached or drained some of the operational personel from the Chaudiere's because of their precedence and their need for personnel as they went overseas first. It could help explain the purchase of only 500 Titles.

Further, due to the past problem and history of the Regiment in recruiting and more then likely losing substantial personnel to the other French Speaking Regiments; it had to source recruits from New Brunswick (Members who could speak French also came from Ontario, Nova Scotia, Manitoba and Saskatchewan) it speaks to the chronic problem the Regiment faced with being under strength and again a possibility for the 500 Titles.

Oddly the Regiment in its history during the Second World War not only had the CASF Regiment known as Le 1er Battalion (Sept. 39-45) , but it also had the CAOF Regiment known as Le 3e Battalion (June 1945- April 1946), and it also had a 3rd Regiment that was stationed back in Canada and known as Le 2e Battalion(1940-1946)...this 2e Regiment had however only 11 Officers and 174 Enlisted Ranks at it's zenith in October 1945. ( Le Regiment de la Chaudiere Castonguay and Ross, 1983., pgs 365-432)


Another thought: One of the reasons I think we see such a wide variety in Canadian and British made and constructed Chaudiere Titles is because of these 3 Battalions. Some of the cruder looking Titles I think belonged to this 2e Regiment?

Lots to chew over here.
Scales of issue were set up for the shoulder titles and formation patches by the army. Seldom were soldiers only issued one pair of shoulder titles or formation patches. Wear and tear was a big factor. Documents at LAC suggest scales of issue were often 3 pairs of titles / patches for 6 months duration. Practice was obviously different than policy, especially depending on the circumstances. Early in the war the scale may have been much smaller, and the availability of titles was not consistent. The regiment may not have had the finances to purchase a full order, but other units in the 3CID also purchased titles at the same time, and had ordered far more. The North Shores ordered 1794 pairs, and the Queen’s Own Rifles, 2000 pairs.
The suggestion that the unit was below strength at the time of the purchase could explain the small order. But this is odd, knowing that they were going overseas, and that there would be attrition, contributing to a significant turnover in the strength which would quickly deplete the stocks. Washing / cleaning would especially contribute to the deterioration of the existing cloth titles, requiring more titles for those on strength of the regiment.
Once overseas, the practice of obtaining titles “locally” was an established policy in the Canadian army. These were subject to the approval of the Corps commander,(later the GOC Canadian MHQ) but the regiments contracted the acquisition to English firms. The need to replenish stocks, which were obtained at various times from different makers may be the explanation for the variety of titles. English companies were hard pressed to meet Canadian requisitions at the same time they were trying to fulfil the contracts for the British army. And obtaining and making the titles exactly to the sealed pattern specs didn’t happen in the UK.
In reference to the three battalions and the variety of titles, one should consider the points mentioned above, plus these. The Régiment de la Chaudiere (CASF and later the Active Force) was the focus of war effort. The overseas active army was first in line for equipment and kitting. The 2nd Battalion Régiment de la Chaudiere was a reserve army unit, and was mostly made up of overage or underage “one night” a week volunteers. They were required to wear the khaki slip-ons during the war, and it was only at the end of hostilities that the wearing of coloured embroidered shoulder titles was allowed in the reserve army.
3 CID was selected to be the representative Canadian element of the Canadian Army Occupation Force. As such the units of the original 3 CID were reconstituted with low points men and volunteers from the Active Army. The R de la Chaud CAOF was a different unit than the R de la Chaud 3 CID. (The Royal 22e Regiment were tasked to the Canadian Pacific Force in 1945) But, they continued to wear the insignia of the Active army unit. In my understanding, whatever material had been available for the activeunit was transferred to the CAOF units.
Open to further considerations.

[Bill A]

Another tidbit from LAC documents. There were orders made from English sources in the latter part of 1942. These titles met the approved pattern for the Chaudieres.

[chaudiere1944]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for replying to my post and my apologies for such a tardy response…it has been incredibly busy in my field of late.

I found your description of the acquiring and purchasing of Shoulder Titles in the Canadian Army incredibly enlightening…thanks for sharing your knowledge. For instance I never even contemplated the damage and attrition done to Shoulder Titles by simply washing the Battledress.

With regards to a couple of your other responses I just wanted to clarify a couple things:

The Chaudiere were mobilized on September 1, 1939 (“Le Regiment de la Chaudiere” Jacques Castonguay and Armand Ross, 1983, pg. 116-118) not September 5, 1940

What occurred on Sept. 5, 1940 based upon G.O 184 was the Regiment was retroactively converted from a mitrailleuses to a standard infantry battalion effective 24 May, 1940 (“Le Regiment de la Chaudiere” Jacques Castonguay and Armand Ross, 1983, pg. 134)


With regards to my Theory about the Regiment being under strength: After spending some time re-reading Le Regiment de la Chaudiere (In French), I found 3 interesting references in the above noted book regarding the Number of men in the Chaudiere. 1) When the Chaudiere left Valcartier, Quebec on September 23, 1940 they had 500 men (pg 137). 2) Then there is a reference to 600 men when they are in Sussex New Brunswick in October/November (pg.138), this is the period my Grand Father transferred into the Regiment. 3) But here is the kicker…sometime between April 1941 and May 1941 the men were sent to a medical examination board in preparation for their anticipated journey to England and there were 908 officers and soldiers (pg. 149). This is when the Order for the Shoulder Titles went in and it appears that the Regiment was by this time at or near full strength. Based upon what you stated as the purchases by the North Shore and the QOR it does not make sense for the Chaudiere to have only purchased 500.

As you alluded to, perhaps the singular reason for only 500 pairs is the Regiment did not have enough financial capital to purchase a similar order as the two other 8th Infantry Brigade Regiments. So I think all my Theories on being under strength at that point in time would be mute.

Best as always,
Mike

[Bill A]

Hi Mike, There is quite a bit of confusion about mobilization in 1939. From what I see the unit was activated twice. I think there was some "legal" requirements for this. This is not to say they were disbanded and reformed, but rather these were paper changes. From "ON ACTIVE SERVICE"

Serial No 189 Le Regiment de la Chaudiere (Mitrailleuses), C.A.S.F.
Authorized: GO 135/39 - Effective 1 Sep 39, Redesignated: GO 184/40 - Effective 5 Sep 40
Redesignated Serial No. 743 - Le Regiment de la Chaudiere, C.A.S.F. - GO 184/40 - Effective 5 Sep 40

Serial No 743 Le Regiment de la Chaudiere, C.A.S.F.
(Note: Formerly Serial No. 189 - Le Regiment de la Chaudiere, C.A.S.F., Redesignated and Allotted New Serial No. 743
under GO 184/40)
Authorized: GO 184/40 - Effective 24 May 40, C.A.S.F. designation dropped: GO 273/40 -
Effective 7 Nov 40
Serial No 743 Le Regiment de la Chaudiere
Authorized: GO 273/40 - Effective 7 Nov 40, Allocated to the Canadian Infantry Corps as:
Serial No. 743 - 1st Battalion, Le Regiment de la Chaudiere, C.I.C. under GO 485/42 - Effective 3 Sep 42


I wonder if there may be an explanation or note in the War Diary about the purchase of titles?

[chaudiere1944]

Hi Bill,

I also have "Le Geste du Regiment de la Chaudiere" which was published in 1945 in Holland...they only printed 2000 copies. I was unable to find any references to their Ordering or Purchasing Shoulder Titles at all.

Perhaps the answer lies somewhere within LAC and the Official War Diary.

Mike

[DavidS]

Originally Posted by John_Zwolle

Hi, as a collector of ww2 items I was able to purchase a shoulder title and badge of Le Regiment de la Chaudiere recently. I am particularly interested in this Canadian regiment, because it liberated the Dutch town of Zwolle (where I live) in 1945.
I wonder if some one of you could help me to determine whether they are WW2 or post war?
Thanks a lot in advance!

I can't comment on the shoulder titles -- not my thing -- but the cap badge looks to me to be the WW2 type. The Regiment de la Chaudiere cap badge has remained unchanged from the 1920s to present, so aside from sliders (which put them in a post-60s time frame), you date them on the basis of various 'feels likes'. Yours is maker marked Scully Montreal, which I take as a sign of a wartime vintage badge as opposed to later, unmarked badges, and the lugs look right to me for the same period. Flat stamped lugs would make it a 1920s pre-war issue. Even if this badge was not issued until the 1950s, probability dictates that it is from wartime overstock.