"Where there's brass..." yet another theory !

[Jeff Mc William]

After even the most casual browse through some of the recent threads that touch upon the 1916 all-brass "economy" issue cap badges, one cannot fail to appreciate the strongly held opinions, firm convictions, and yes, even a consuming passion held by many that accompany this delicate subject. (vide. guest456, alias GD, alias Grand Duchess etc). So, naturally I don't wish to stir-up any more antagonism, but I do believe that the following few thoughts I have been considering lately may help to smooth over the controversy a little, and perhaps even partly explain why at least some of these items that appear to have an undisputed provenance, are nevertheless not listed in the ACD records:

Green Howards all brass 1902-08.jpg KOSB KC (all brass 1).jpg

Take for example the two all-brass cap badges attached ;
The Green Howards badge is clearly of the 1896 to 1908 bi-metal pattern and so obviously not a 1916 "economy" issue (nor does it claim to be !) It has in fact been identified by the museum as "Band 1902-08" and it is assumed that these were made for a special order by the regiment.
Similarly the all-brass KOSB as shown has already been identified by Alan Owen in a previous thread as "Edwardian" ie. 1901 to 1910, so again not a 1916 economy badge.
Further,it would appear from other known examples that, for the period 1881 to 1908, the Militia Battalions of many Line Regiments (then designated as 3rd Battalions) adopted a "reversed-metal" badge to distinguish themselves from the 1st & 2nd Battalions and the Volunteer Bns. This would of course mean that certain regiments with white-metal badges, eg the Somerset LI and the Gloucesters (and indeed many of the Scottish regiments) would be "all-brass" to these units..with some being lugged...arrgghhh !
No doubt there are several other reasons why these all brass "mavericks" exist, there being no ACD documents to confirm this, and surviving records for those being privately struck long since gone.
These then are my conclusions as to why so many apparently genuine all-brass cap badges are drifting about which confuse the issue and defy explanation.
Excuse me if this has all been "aired" before, and, can I make it quite clear that I am not trying to undermine KLR's excellent research work and findings on this subject which I very much admire and look forward to seeing when they are eventually published. In the meantime I wonder if anyone else has any other thoughts or "input" to these views. Jeff

PS: I am quite prepared to be "shot down in flames" over this, but I do hope any criticism is constructive and not just a blanket dismissal. J

[Peter Brydon]

Jeff,
A most interesting thread, I am surprised no one else has responded.

I have ,over the years ,sought information on badges worn by the Kings Liverpool Militia battalions from 1881 but with little success. I have a reversed metal collar badge ( illustrated ) with missing tail but have never come across a reversed metal cap badge.

Some reversed metal cap badges in K and K but not ,as far as I can see, any all brass cap badges attributed to the militia.

I know Dress regulations 1900 only applies to officers kit but there appears to be little help there,other than paragraphs 803-806. I do have a Kings militia officers full dress tunic ( 4th Bn) pre 1914 which is exactly the same as a regular officers one.There again Volunteer officers ( 3rd and 4th V.B`s ) at one stage had silver and gilt cap and collar badges as worn by the regulars.

There are badges that do not comply with what might be regarded as the norm but for which there is provenance ( like your all brass Green Howards badge ). Perhaps more research is required and members could show badges in their collections which do not comply with the norm but which are genuine.

I dont think you can be" shot down in flames", it is the wide variety of insigia,with collectors finding examples they were not previously aware of ,which makes the hobby so fascinating.

P.B.

P.S. One of the difficulties in respect of the whole subject is the better made spurious items which fool even some dealers, I have seen all brass and bi metal badges( which are completely wrong ) on well known dealers lists.

[John Mulcahy]

I had missed this post until now, and it is an interesting subject.

Jeff

with all respect I personally would not subscribe to the theory that the "all brass" or reversed metals may be attributable to the militia battalions (at least not attributable universally in any case).

Consider my area of interest - Irish Regiments at the time of territorialisation there was a high ratio of Irish militia regiments to Irish line regiments with the result that all Irish Line regiments had at least 3 battalions of the former militia regiments and in the case of the Royal Irish Rifles it was 4.

Thus, there was in theory in the case of the Irish regiments a greater need for badges for the militia regiments that the regular ( I have not taken scale of issue or effective establisment into account but I think this is not required for the argument) . Yet you do not find proportionally more all brass badges to the Munsters, Dublins, Leinsters, RIF & Skins as you do bi-metal designs. In addition you do not find reversed versions of the badges of these regiments

There may well be legitimate explanations on a case by case basis for some of the reversed or all brass anomalies but I would suggest that they are an exceptions rather than a rule.

John

[Alan O]

I am only aware of the following militia 2 part badges in reversed metals:

Essex Regt
East Lancs Regt.

These were both pre 1908. In 1908 the militia bns ceased to exist and the 3rd Reserve Bns were formed who wore the standard badges. The E Lancs badge was supposedly made again in reversed metals in error in the 1920s and sent to the TF Bns. Source John Gaylor.

I am unaware of any militia bn wore wore an all brass badge in contrast to an all w/m badge of the Regular Bns.

The Glosters did have a brass abdge but it was blackened brass and for the 5th TF Bn. I only say this as I have seen a few sold as all brass economies when they were worn 5th bn badges.

Alan

[ncc]

the leicester militia had an all brass tiger pre 1908,although different top scroll.

[Alan O]

Thanks - what was on it? Laurels as the Somerset LI had or something else?

[KLR]

Jeff, You are of course right - there has to be some explanation for the many all GM badges that are clearly not those lidtyed as being made in 1916.
The simplest answer would be to say that they are all fake - but again that is not the case with all of them (eg GM Black watch is Canadian) but I fear that a lot are duds.
No, the ACD papers do not contain much info on Vol or TF badge - certainly not before 1914, though more info after the war.
The answer lies with individual regimental private purchases and I'm afraid it would take an age to research EVERY single unit, I'm doing it for one regt and that is taking long enough !
The work I'm helping with is purely to do with the 1916 issues and does not go into any thing that might be pre 1916.

incidentally the 1904 DR covers the militia but as far as the KLR gos they are thje same badges as the regulars - but as mentioned that is officer's only.

There is an article by Parkyn in Jnl Soc A Hist res(don't have details with me at the mo) on militia badges but there are very few cap badges mentioned in it.

[Peter Brydon]

Interesting point raised by Alan O,

Whilst he is correct that in 1908, the militia battalions became known as Reserve Battalions, and in the case of Line regiments with more than one militia battalion ( such as the Liverpools ) the second militia battalion became the 4th (Extra Reserve ) Battalion,the Army List of November 1932 ( the earliest one I have after 1919) shows the ( 3rd and 4th ) Battalions as "Militia " Battalions.

P.B.

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi gentlemen, very many thanks for your response and the many interesting comments. After over a 100 views and no replies, I was beginning to think no one was interested..and now this..amazing !
While my original intention was to try and explain why so many "maverick" all-brass badges were about, I see this has now developed into a discussion on the "reversed-metal" badges of the Militia Battalions. Great ! that's fine by me as it is an interesting topic in its own right and still connected to my main theme.
When discussing these points, I guess I am more properly referring to the period 1896 to 1908, after which (as Alan O says) the Territorial Force Act finally put an end to the Militia and Volunteer Battalion distinctions. Prior to that, for the period 1881 to 1896 this covers the badges worn on the glengarry cap, and in this "twilight zone" there appear to have been many curious hybrid anomalies where even the Regular 1st and 2nd Battns wanted their own distinctive badges. This no doubt would make another interesting thread. However, returning to the original scenario ; You may have noticed in my first post I was careful not to suggest that I thought all the Militia regiments adopted this process, as I am well aware that this was not the case. There were in fact several other clever alternatives that could be (and were) exploited, eg the 4th(Militia) Battn the Bedfordshire Regt had an identical badge to the 1st & 2nd Battns except for the title "Hertfordshire" on the brass scroll (K&K 1199)..this must indeed be a very rare item, tho' I am not sure what badge the 3rd Battn wore.
However, there are certainly some regiments who did use reversed-metal badges, and I am sure others that may have. Alan O lists some, viz :
Som LI Mil.jpgOffs East Lancs Mil QVC.jpgGloucester all-brass.jpg
3rd Militia Battn PA Somerset LI (All-brass or bronze with a laurel spray replacing the Jellalabad honour..NB Not in K&K or Gaylor)
3rd Militia Battn The Essex Regt (Reversed metals K&K 1238) Sorry I have no photo of this.
3rd Militia Battn East Lancs Regt (Reversed metals K&K 1211 & 1212) My photo is an officer's badge.
Plus the all-brass Gloucester Regt which Alan O says is 5th TF Battn. This is listed in Gaylor as 1916 economy which has been disputed in a number of previous Forum threads. This particular one had lugs at the rear. Militia ? Band ? 1916 economy ? or fake ? !
Interesting to hear of the Leicester Militia badge Bob, I have not seen or heard of this before..any chance I might "blag" a photo ?
Mention was made of K&K, but without wishing to be too critical of this splendid work, it is very "sketchy" and incomplete as far as the militia is concerned, and Gaylor does not cover the Militia at all ! As far as the Irish Militia is concerned John, I see K&K treat this complex issue as a separate section..however, once again coverage is fragmentary and not comprehensive. Therefore I am more than willing to accept the expert opinions that you made unreservedly.
Before I close, I am only too willing to admit that what I have said so far is only my opinion based (I think) on logic, and I have no definate evidence or proof, but I hope I have raised a few points which are of interest. Sorry I have "prattled-on" for so long now. I shall shut up and leave the discussion to others. Many thanks again to you all. Jeff

[Alan O]

'Plus the all-brass Gloucester Regt which Alan O says is 5th TF Battn. This is listed in Gaylor as 1916 economy which has been disputed in a number of previous Forum threads. This particular one had lugs at the rear. Militia ? Band ? 1916 economy ? or fake ? !'

Jeff,

I have not seen your lugged brass one before and I would not dismiss it out of hand. My point was that all of the all brass ones I have seen for sale have either been fakes (there is a give away die flaw common to the all) or 5th Bn ones which have the blank plinth rather than the EGYPT. There well may have been a Victorian glengarry badge in brass but I am pretty sure that there was not a 1916 economy one. Interestingly yours is a solid badge (ie the usual voids below the scroll are missing). This trait is also found on some of the post 1908 TF blank scroll badges.

K&K are lacking in this area and Gaylor's book, whilst it is an entertaining read for the beginner, can be very misleading. The All-brass list is based on nothing more than hear-say than any reliable source.

Alan

[Jeff Mc William]

Sorry Alan. I did not mean my remarks to be offensive, I was just reviewing the options that have so far been offered. To be honest I don't know who is right at this stage, but I strongly suspect you are ! However, I have not totally discounted any option so far (since they are all feasible) but this just goes to show what an enormous gap there is in our knowledge particularly it would seem for the period 1881 to 1908. Regards. Jeff

[Alan O]

Your Glosters badge is interesting. The lugs and the lack of voids does suggest an early badge (pre WW1) and the lack of a blank scroll means that it is not post 1908 TF. I have seen Glosters pre1908 Volunteer battalion badges and they all had a VB designation and were in WM.

There are a number of possibilities - militia is one. Another is an early regular battalion badge. My knowledge of victirian era badges is a bit too patchy I am afraid.

[Viletone]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Your Glosters badge is interesting. The lugs and the lack of voids does suggest an early badge (pre WW1) and the lack of a blank scroll means that it is not post 1908 TF. I have seen Glosters pre1908 Volunteer battalion badges and they all had a VB designation and were in WM.

There are a number of possibilities - militia is one. Another is an early regular battalion badge. My knowledge of victirian era badges is a bit too patchy I am afraid.

A very, very interesting thread.

Just going back to the reversed metals, maybe this appied more to officers than OR's. In my collection I have reversed metal collars for both the East Surrey (QVC) and Middlesex Regiments and both are silver and gilt.

Does anyone have a reversed Essex? I've always regretted not buying one I saw at a fair a few years ago. Fakes do exist though and with sweatholes.

[QOSY]

Originally Posted by Viletone

A very, very interesting thread.

Just going back to the reversed metals, maybe this appied more to officers than OR's. In my collection I have reversed metal collars for both the East Surrey (QVC) and Middlesex Regiments and both are silver and gilt.

Does anyone have a reversed Essex? I've always regretted not buying one I saw at a fair a few years ago. Fakes do exist though and with sweatholes.

Hi Viletone,
I was interested in your comment re reversed silver and gilt Middlesex collar. Is it the same as this one? It is the same size as the cap badge. ( I also have a reversed Essex with sweatholes, but a known fake)
Jim

[Viletone]

Originally Posted by QOSY

Hi Viletone,
I was interested in your comment re reversed silver and gilt Middlesex collar. Is it the same as this one? It is the same size as the cap badge. ( I also have a reversed Essex with sweatholes, but a known fake)
Jim

Jim,

I'm afriad not. The collars are the same size as the OR's bimetal ones but with a 'reeded' gilt background. I've never seen a badge like yours before though, very interesting.