Dorsetshire wide wreath cap badge dating

[Alan O]

Jim,

It has been suggested elsewhere (Colin Churchill in Crown Imperial) that the Regtl castle badge was worn by ORs for 4-5 years after the 3 tower pattern was sealed in 1901. The fact that the Regular Bns were overseas and the undoubted requirement to use up old stock would have played a part.

I would need to find some photos of the regt wearing the 2 tower badges in Brodrick caps to nail the date and prove the slow adoption of the 1901 sealed pattern 3 tower badge. But it cannot be ruled out that the wide wreath badge was an early 1906 version which agrees with the Museum's dating and the nature of the construction.

This does not support a particular battalion attribution to either 1st or 2nd and as the photo shows at the start of the thread it was still in use in WW1: either a maker's variation or as old stock being used up.

alan

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

This badge was worn by the 1st Btn in India c1906, it is 45mm wide and stocks could well have been issued in the Great War.

Rob

In an article "Headdress Badges of The Dorsetshire Regiment" which appeared in the Crown Imperial journal during the 1980's / early 90's Colin G. Churchill states that it is believed that this badge was made in India & worn on the service cap by The 1st Battalion circa 1906.

A set of Players cigarette cards "Regimental Standards and Cap Badges" from the early part of the last century shows a representation of this "wide" badge along with the Regimantal Colour of The 2nd Battalion.

[Alan O]

Leigh

Thanks. I don't suppose Colin Churchill referenced this claim? I don't believe that the badge is Indian made as all other Indian badge I have seen is cast where as this one is die-struck. It may well have been worn when the Bn was in India but I have been unable to find a picture to prove this yet.

Alan

[fougasse1940]

I find it odd that the W/M ground the castle stands on never touches the G/M 'Dorsetshire' scroll and the angle of the W/M 'Primus in Indis' scroll ends differs from the curvature of the G/M 'Dorsetshire' scroll, almost as if the W/M part invariably was made for the regular wreath badge.

Rgds, Thomas.

[fougasse1940]

Trying to resurrect the query above, this time with images. If one compares the wide wreath version with the normal version the W/M bits in the wide wreath version just don't seem to fit. The same W/M bits would fit perfectly in a normal version.

Rgds, Thomas.

[Alan O]

The Keep show this as a 1906 pattern badge in their collection. To back this up in one of the Regtl Histories in their shop there is a group photo of the Dorsetshire Bn NCOs in 1905 wearing the 1897 pattern badge. The photo has an annotation that this was the last year of the Victorian badge's use before the change in 1906 but that old sweats hung on to them into WW1.

The regtl photos from 1914 show the 'normal' round pattern badge in use so the 1906 one seem to have had a short life before being replaced for the better proportioned badge.

[leigh kitchen]

By coincidence I've just found Crown Imperial No. 56, Autumn 1989, which has the article by CG Churchill (another expedition into the garage).
He quotes no references, merely stating that the wide wreath bi-metal badge "is believed to have been made in India and worn on the service dress cap by the 1st Bn circa 1906".

The " normal" width badge is referred to as being worn on the Broderick 1903/5, on the SD cap from 1905 and also the Wolesley Tropical Ceremonial and Pith helmets.
Also worn with a2" square green backing on the combat cap from 1940, although not officially recognised until 15th August 1950.
The first badges made by Firmins had the castle resting on a straight bar plinth whilst the Gaunt badge, believed to have been introduced in the early 1920's, had the castle on a "grassy mound". These badges were both worn at the same time, the difference merely being a manufacturer's quirk.
He mentions an OR's WWI economy fitted with tangs, reputed to have been converted by regimental armourers during that war due to lack of supplies.
An interesting article but the 12 images of the insignia are all misnumbered with regard to the 3 1/2 pages of text' which is a bit of a pain.

[leigh kitchen]

I just remembered - check this GMIC thread chaps.
I put up a photo of the names of the men in the 1st Bn in India in 1905. the names are arranged in the pattern of the twio turret badge.

A gentleman responded by mentioning and allowing me to show images from an album he has of 1st Bn personnel in India in 1906.
A number of different badges are shown in wear - and are some wearing the "wide" three turret badge?:
http://gmic.co.uk/forums/topic/40746...comment-377134

[Alan O]

Identifying whether this was a Bn badge or common to both Bns is rather complicated by the fact that they swapped over in India in 1906 as the 2nd Bn arrived back in India that year and the 1st Bn left after 13 years in the sub contingent.

[KLR]

You might find an analogy with the "unofficial" badge worn by the King's which is actually described in the regimental archives as a "Foreign Service" badge, thus used by both battalions as they took turns in India. Also, like your Dorset photographic evidence, this badge filtered back to the UK where are number are seen on photographs of units at 'home' before 1914 and in use by 1st WW soldiers.

Incidentally, the FSC ("side cap") continued to be worn in India long after it was abandoned in the UK - first for the Brodrick then for the SD peaked cap - to at least 1914. This explains the continuing use of loops on cap badges in India after the 1906 introduction of the slider for units now wearing the SD cap in the UK.

[Alan O]

You may have hit the nail on the head. There was a reference in the Keep to it being an unofficial badge.

[KLR]

"Unofficial" is, of course, a modern designation. As far as the KLR were concerned, their FS badge was 'authorised' at regimental level as it represented a slight deviation to the ACD Sealed Pattern cap badge. I'm not surprised that other regiments, such as the Dorsets, had the same idea !

[Jim Maclean]

Last week on that auction site there was a wide wreath for sale with good pictures of both back and front. Looking at the picture of the back on the fixing tabs were reverse images of parts of "PRIMUS IN INDIS", the most noticeable being the IS in INDIS in reverse.

This sent me scurrying to have a look at mine as I'd never noticed this before. I've got four of them and one of them has got a definite impression of the last S and a definite odd mark on the other tab. The other three have absolutely flat tabs that have never had marks on.

Obviously there were at least two reverse dies made. I can't find any differences on the front that couldn't be attributed to polishing. I can't imagine why two reverse dies were needed for a badge that nobody denies existed but for which so little evidence exists.

Anyone else got the reverse imprints?

The enigma deepens.

[Nozzer]

I thought I would add this to the thread. I believe the lad on the left of the picture is wearing a "wide wreath" cap badge. Unfortunately, I have no information to go with this postcard, but the dress should help with dates.

Andy

[Alan O]

1915-16 judging by the economy tunics.