Restrikes from worn die?

[grenadierguardsman]

Thanks really interesting, they've done a good job on attaching the slider though. That does take some skill.
Andy

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

All points duly noted, sir. Thank you once again for your considered replies. Much appreciated.

JT

If it's of any help, here's one in my collection with quite a lot of detail left in it, but still with rough edges, wanky shank, etc. Not a badge I'm proud to own FWIW.

[Jelly Terror]

That's a nice example, Keith; not necessarily aesthetically (poor creature) but in terms of its general condition.

I'd just like thank everyone for their contributions so far. Now that we have the bonnet up I'm sure there is plenty more to get our hands dirty on with this one. Hoping to pick up where I left off once I get a free minute or ten.

Thanks again all.

JT

[Jelly Terror]

By way of a small digression, I just want to point out that there is a 'ghost' letter on the W/M scroll of badge 'C':

JT Q.jpg JT Q2.jpg

Just between the words 'THE' and 'QUEEN'S' is the vaguest vestige of what appears to be the letter 'Q'. The same anomaly can just be made out on Keith's example too.

['Ticker' Riley]

Hello JT

This is just a quick posting about small round braze/vent holes, which I generally have no problem with. To illustrate things please see below three examples of the ‘fat-cat’ Leicesters type, all of which have small round braze holes:

As should be obvious the one on the left and the one in the middle have a three hole arrangement, one behind the top scroll and two behind the ‘Leicestershire’ one, whilst the badge on the right has four braze holes arranged two and two. Incidentally, these ‘fat-cats’ do also come without any braze holes at all.

In any event, the holes on the left-hand badge seem smaller than those on the others, though this, in part, appears to be because they look to have been pushed through from the front the badge to the back, whereas those on the other badges go from the back to the front. Having said that the holes behind the bottom scroll of the middle one are more or less the same size as those on the left-hand one, but that behind its ‘Hindoostan’ honour appears to be near the hole size of those on the right-hand badge. It is also interesting to note the inconsistent way in which the holes have been positioned on all three badges, and how one hole on the right-hand badge is very near the edge of the bottom scroll.

Anyhow, my point is that on these badges at least I am personally comfortable that small round braze holes do appear on authentic First World War cap badges. Though for an example of a Leicesters badge that has clearly had round holes drilled into it, please see a posting I made here in 2015. There is even a close-up of where the drill ruptured the front of the ‘Leicestershire’ scroll!!

Best regards

Martin

[Alan O]

Exactly the holes would be punched though before the w/m overlay was added. That was the point of them to allow hot gases to escape when the 2 parts were put together.

Anything drilled post fixing is a 100% fake.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley

Hello JT

This is just a quick posting about small round braze/vent holes, which I generally have no problem with. To illustrate things please see below three examples of the ‘fat-cat’ Leicesters type, all of which have small round braze holes:

As should be obvious the one on the left and the one in the middle have a three hole arrangement, one behind the top scroll and two behind the ‘Leicestershire’ one, whilst the badge on the right has four braze holes arranged two and two. Incidentally, these ‘fat-cats’ do also come without any braze holes at all.

In any event, the holes on the left-hand badge seem smaller than those on the others, though this, in part, appears to be because they look to have been pushed through from the front the badge to the back, whereas those on the other badges go from the back to the front. Having said that the holes behind the bottom scroll of the middle one are more or less the same size as those on the left-hand one, but that behind its ‘Hindoostan’ honour appears to be near the hole size of those on the right-hand badge. It is also interesting to note the inconsistent way in which the holes have been positioned on all three badges, and how one hole on the right-hand badge is very near the edge of the bottom scroll.

Anyhow, my point is that on these badges at least I am personally comfortable that small round braze holes do appear on authentic First World War cap badges. Though for an example of a Leicesters badge that has clearly had round holes drilled into it, please see a posting I made here in 2015. There is even a close-up of where the drill ruptured the front of the ‘Leicestershire’ scroll!!

Best regards

Martin

Sterling work, Ticker, and good to see such a fine streak of well-fed Panthera tigris tigris (I presume the Leicester's tiger is of the Bengal variety... Hindoostan, and all that?)

Personally, I have never had any trouble with this type of vent hole (that excludes the obviously bogus versions, of course). As you know, I felt it pertinent to include the subject in my opening post in order to allow as much balance and scope as possible within the discussion of the spurious versus the incontrovertible.

I note that vent holes are often said to be more prevalent on earlier-made badges, and with their absence being associated with later methods of construction? Can anyone tell us (a) if this is this correct? and (b) if so, what might have changed in the manufacturing process that meant vent holes were no longer employed/necessary?

[Alan O]

Yes,

As I understand it because they developed brase that did not need to be heated to such high temperatures and therefore produced less gas.

Alan

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Yes,

As I understand it because they developed brase that did not need to be heated to such high temperatures and therefore produced less gas.

Alan

Ergo, more gas = fatter tigers

[Phil2M]

Maybe the fat cats ate all the lambs?

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi JT

Glad you didn’t mind me showing off my ‘fat-cats’ - just thought by putting up these Leicesters examples with small round braze holes it would help clarify that this in itself is not a sign of a fake badge, but, rather, as Alan notes, it is signs of drilling that need concern us.

You might well be right about the Leicester’s tiger being a Bengal one, though my understanding it is more Tigris regalis, as I believe when it was awarded in 1825 it was described as the ‘Royal Tiger’. I also understand that heraldically it is rendered as a green tiger with gold stripes, by that’s by the by! Regarding these particular ‘fat-cat’ ones, maybe Phil is right and they did eat all the lambs!! I’ve certainly taken your thread off on a tangent a little, so apologies for that.

On the question of braze/vent holes, Alan could well be correct about changes in the actual braze used leading to manufacturers no longer needing the holes, though I fear things might not be as simple and straight forward as saying early badges come with holes and later ones don’t. Again, speaking personally from my experience with Leicesters badges, whilst I would say in general that the axiom is still true, I current believe that at least one manufacturer of Leicesters badges originally did not use braze holes and, in fact, back in 2015 posted something up on this here.

I am also happy that whilst some makers consistently used braze holes, others only did for a time, and yet others never used them; at least in relation to Leicesters badges that is. Further, it is the case that Dowler marked post-1950 bi-metal Leicesters beret badges have braze holes, and I have a full-size Gaunt type ‘Royal Leicestershire’ badge, which may have been for a non-commissioned officer, and that still has braze holes (it is in my Gaunt album here). So yes, braze holes are generally an indicator of an early badge, but this is not necessarily always so, nor should their absence always be an indication of a more recent date. Then, of course, we have the whole question of shape and size, and changes in these over time, but we won’t go there right now!!

Best regards

Martin

[badger123]

Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley

Hi JT

.....just thought by putting up these Leicesters examples with small round braze holes it would help clarify that this in itself is not a sign of a fake badge.......

Martin

Couldn't agree more Martin, small round braze holes are certainly commonly found on York and Lancs badges too, see example of a VB badge with small round braze holes.

(Apologies for also taking this thread off subject).

Ivan

[Phil2M]

My Leinsters and RDF badges have the same, small, round braize holes.

[Jelly Terror]

What about my poor, neglected flock? I'm being fleeced!!

[Phil2M]

And here ewe go again!!