What is an official or authorised badge!

[REMEVMBEA1]

Originally Posted by mac mcconnell

I had my second Motto close to 21 years I got it from the PRI Private purchase and my silver one as well I got that later, It turned out the Silver one was a copy from a Firmin. Regimental PRI care not from were badges come from if they look the part and are cheap they will get them in and pass them on to the Lads and make profit.
These wont in many cases even be vetted by the CO as theirs no need as if they look the same who cares if its cheaper, back in the day all money was treasured for Beer token's. I remember when the Bronze Mottos came in.....................twice we were not amused more bills before exercise .

Having seen how many Badges/ Mottos get short shrift if they don't have the proper Mark by the purest which is a safe ish way to collect an Official Badge.
I feel you can miss out on much history on a real badge that may have a story to tell like my Motto a private purchase with a repair but you need to get the Badge from a soldier like that and not a dealer................and NO I am keeping my Motto. You also need to document it when you get it wise words I often get told by Rob well that should muddy the water again.


Mac

I think I agree with what you say. Just my opinion but if a badge is of the approved design it matters not where it's made or purchased , as if it's been worn by a serving soldier it's a genuine badge.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by REMEVMBEA1

I think I agree with what you say. Just my opinion but if a badge is of the approved design it matters not where it's made or purchased , as if it's been worn by a serving soldier it's a genuine badge.

I think we're drifting further and further from the original post! I agree that if as REMEVMBEA1 says if worn it has some authenticity, but that cannot make it "genuine"? For example the Winking, creased forehead Motto, pumped out by the thousand is "Clearly" a fake, just because some Trooper unwittingly buys one off eBay, then polishes it up and wears it, can add authenticity, but it cannot in a month of Sundays turn what started life as Fake in to Genuine "Surely"?

Andy

Get real guys, there's a saying that you cannot polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter! A Fake is a Fake, even if someone wears one for years! PRI items are authorised in most cases but as in the initial posts often replacements for the "Issue" items.

Andy

[mac mcconnell]

Hi Andy totally agree with buying fakes off ebay. What I was pointing out I had private purchased from the Regimental PRI which had been ok,ed my Silver Motto turned out to be a copy of a Firmin. My white metal was also purchased from the PRI which had the Regiments blessing as did the Bronze ones and iam sure they don't come from the QM,s again a private purchase ,but an official Motto/badge to be worn on exercise.

Mac

[didithevan]

Andy, this is where we may disagree to a small degree. In my view, having served and occasion filled a requirement with a replacement.if I wore a piece of kit in daily use or on ops, it does in my view actually become genuine. After all this stuff was made to be worn by soldiers, not put in a case. A badge, repro or whatever, if it has provenance of being worn, in my view is far more real than an issued item that may have never left the shelf. As long as it has a proven provenance it has a value I a collection, repro or not. The key is proven provenance.
A case in point is when I joined my battalion as a young Tom before I commissioned, I disliked the staybrite badges as they kept breaking. I therefore went down town and bought what looked like an identical one in bimetal. I polished it, wore it and it went on ops with me. I challenge anyone who asks if it is now not a genuine badge. It is a genuine badge, worn by a soldier on uniform, in service. How much more genuine does its provenance have to be?
It is all down to interpretation of genuine and in my book, wearing an item in service qualifies it as genuine as it has a story to go with it and it becomes identifiable with a person.

Stu

[2747andy]

Stu,
whilst I tend to agree in principle, "Fake" can "Never" become Genuine! My own Regiment do not wear "Issued" badges through choice, the cloth beret badges are purchased via the PRI as are the Gm/Brass Leeks for the Forage cap! Senior ranks wear a silver embroidered beret badge, which is in fact a SNCO tunic collar badge and a privately purchased silver Leek in the Forage cap. The "Issued" badge for junior ranks remains the Anodised Aluminium version, although there are some shocking "New Metal" Firmin marked things doing the rounds!

I would go as far as agreeing that a private purchase item, purchased for wear becomes authentic, but not even Harry Potter and all his mates could magic a Fake into Genuine!

Just my view, but it is fueled by the amount of Fakes sold as Genuine that have never even sat on the shelf of a PRI shop never mind graced a soldiers cap.

Andy

[didithevan]

Andy, you are right. The key is actually getting some of the traders to be honest. As with both our units, what is worn varies and what is regimentally acceptable depends on the interpretation of the Adjt or CO.
There are too many unscrupulous traders palming off stuff that they claim is original, just look at e-bay and the adverts for modern badges being touted as ww1!

Hi,

Could you please back up your remarks about the majority of helmet plate centres being 1920's/1930's repros with something factual as its something I'm not aware of, but of course am always interested in learning.

Regards,

HAMMO2440

Originally Posted by didithevan

Andy,

You are technically right in tems of officially purchased, but as a collector it can become somewhat difficult to decide what is correct. Are the purists who insist on the only the issued versions actually correct when as a collector are you then technically wrong for buying and selling a repro that you KNOW was actually the adopted pattern in a unit.

It makes the various debates on this and other forums something of a moot issue - how can an issued item that was rejected by the soldiers in a unit be a correct badge? That item surely then becomes the 'oddity', whilst the repro should be accepted as the definitive item for collecting.

Its a bit like the debate on Army boots - we all knew what the issued ones were crap and we rejected them for better after market boots. Does mean in the future that my actual worn uniform would be rejected by someone reconstructung uniforms of the 80/90's because I wore Lundhags and not the cardboard crap?

There is also the issue of qty on the market being touted as 'genuine'. If every so called 'genuine' WM, Br or BM sold at market was original, given the amount already in private collections, the amount 'lost' and already disposed of, the British Army would have at least quadrupled in size at any point in its history!

It is the reason I have shied away from WM etc. I have to accept that without any form of provenence all badges are technically suspect, or I simplly collect the cheaper honest repro pattern because I cannot actually prove others are not due to ingenious weathering, fading, rubbing etc.

I will be collecting HP centres soon, I know that 99% of those are going to be fakes as the odds of that number of genuine surviving is minimal. Most are in fact restrikes from the 20/30's! I just wish that the general market would stop touting them as originals and try to charge inflated rates. Actually, I would like to find the repro manufacturer and buy from trade as I actually want a set to display rather than try to find the real thing - I leave that to those with absolute detail knowledge and fat wallets...

[George Davies]

Hi all,
Have followed with great inierest this thread. I finished my service as QMS at HQ HBTD (Homeward Bound Trooping Depot) Deolali,and In the office we had a very large box of cap badges.hundreds of them mostly Indian made and qiute rough. I remember an RSM marching one of his men into the office because he had lost his badge and we issiud him with a badge among many others.As the Depot had originally been BBRC ( British Base Reinforcement Camp),I think we can say there were quire a few of these issued,As the majotrty of these men went on to Burma I think they must be classed as Genuine,and well worth collecting.
Just a thought but I thought you may be interested
George.

[Peter Brydon]

To my simple mind I am happy to collect any badge actually worn within any of the battalions of the regiment which is my main interest.

P.B.

[Cribyn]

Hello

I don't collect badges (and given the problems we read about on this Forum I am very glad too!) but for what it's worth I think there is a difference between an "officially issued" badge and a "privately purchased" badge but both may be collectable to some.

However, no matter where it comes from or who wore it, a fake badge is always going to be a fake badge. A fake Rolex watch does not become "genuine" just because someone bought and wore it!

Roger

[fougasse1940]

And then there is the fake white metal OBLI beret badge with the thin round corded loops, later officially worn by the Light Division Band.

Rgds, Thomas.

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

To my simple mind I am happy to collect any badge actually worn within any of the battalions of the regiment which is my main interest.

P.B.

Peter,

I can second that one.

Cheers,

HAMMO2440

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Cribyn

Hello

I don't collect badges (and given the problems we read about on this Forum I am very glad too!) but for what it's worth I think there is a difference between an "officially issued" badge and a "privately purchased" badge but both may be collectable to some.

However, no matter where it comes from or who wore it, a fake badge is always going to be a fake badge. A fake Rolex watch does not become "genuine" just because someone bought and wore it!

Roger

As Genuine as the item in this link, what a load of utter Bo**ocks, totally false claims!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROYAL-ULST...item3f514fb711

Andy

[Eddie Parks]

Originally Posted by Robthereiver

As for badges commissioned by individuals being worn could you possibly give an example of such a badge? I do know of instances where Nco's Arm badges have been purchased by ex regimental members and worn by the serving NCO's, again these badges were official regimental pattern.

When I was a BC in 3RHA I had hall-marked silver cyphers made for my SNCOs along with silver-gilt "sweetheart" brooches for their wives.

Eddie