British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Australian Military Insignia > General Topics

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 18-01-17, 06:35 AM
badgecollector's Avatar
badgecollector badgecollector is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,239
Default some australian shoulder titles

hi all
just arrived today.
including a few artillery for keith to enjoy.
and an awesome Victorian Rangers. seller thought its lugs were broken off and it had holes drilled in it. lol, of course there were never lugs and they were stitched onto the uniform.
bc
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCN5405.JPG (82.8 KB, 162 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN5406.JPG (87.6 KB, 65 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 19-01-17, 02:14 AM
badgecollector's Avatar
badgecollector badgecollector is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,239
Default

hi all
any thoughts on what the G would have been used for?
also, what period and who would have worn the straight australia title and the small curved title?
cheers
bc
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 19-01-17, 07:06 AM
fairlie63's Avatar
fairlie63 fairlie63 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Claremont, Tasmania
Posts: 1,366
Default

G Coy Vic Rangers although the one I have seen had the G attached to the VR title.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 21-01-17, 12:30 PM
MartinRF MartinRF is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 74
Default some australian shoulder titles

Hello,

My collection of "some Australian shoulder titles"...

The straight "AUSTRALIA" shoulder titles were A.I.F. - as were the curved - but the only period sepia portrait I have showing them in use is attached, also.

(8{
Attached Images
File Type: jpg AUSTRALIA_0018.jpg (26.2 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170121_101810865.jpg (45.3 KB, 91 views)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 21-01-17, 12:58 PM
MartinRF MartinRF is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 74
Default some australian shoulder titles

The small, curved "AUSTRALIA" titles were worn by Officers, on the lapels immediately underneath the General Service collars, but I have only seen these being worn early on - more commonly/perhaps even only within the First Contingent.

The "AUSTRALIA" title signified those troops destined for overseas service - hence the use of the term "Imperial" within "A.I.F.". The A.M.F. / P.M.F. did not use it, though there are evidences of P.M.F. badges being worn together with the "AUSTRALIA" shoulder title - these instances would have been those who had served in the P.M.F. (never much other than 10,000 strong) and had signed up for overseas service (in the A.I.F.).

Some more of my devices...

(8{
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20170121_101840997.jpg (37.9 KB, 62 views)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 21-01-17, 09:23 PM
badgecollector's Avatar
badgecollector badgecollector is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,239
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinRF View Post
The small, curved "AUSTRALIA" titles were worn by Officers, on the lapels immediately underneath the General Service collars, but I have only seen these being worn early on - more commonly/perhaps even only within the First Contingent.
(8{
Hi Martin
Interesting. I have never heard of or seen this. Never even seen dress regs referring to this. Why would they have worn them on lapels?
Also when you say First Contingent are you referring to WW1 or Boer War?
BTW you have some nice items in your collection.
BC
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 22-01-17, 06:22 AM
fairlie63's Avatar
fairlie63 fairlie63 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Claremont, Tasmania
Posts: 1,366
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinRF View Post
The small, curved "AUSTRALIA" titles were worn by Officers, on the lapels immediately underneath the General Service collars, but I have only seen these being worn early on - more commonly/perhaps even only within the First Contingent.

Hello MartinRF

The "AUSTRALIA" title signified those troops destined for overseas service - hence the use of the term "Imperial" within "A.I.F.". The A.M.F. / P.M.F. did not use it, though there are evidences of P.M.F. badges being worn together with the "AUSTRALIA" shoulder title - these instances would have been those who had served in the P.M.F. (never much other than 10,000 strong) and had signed up for overseas service (in the A.I.F.).

Some more of my devices...

(8{
The PMF at any time was never much more than 1000 strong until it became the Regular Army after the Second World War. The 'Australia' title in gilt was worn by officers of the Australian Staff Corps in overseas postings from 1922. The Australian Siege Brigade was initially raised from volunteers of the PMF, and reinforced from volunteers from the CMF. It was a wholly AIF unit, not PMF, and wore the 'Australia' title as well as the copper oxidised hat and collar badges of the Siege Brigade, which were based on the RAA collar badge. The RAA scroll was not authorised as a hat badge for the PMF until 1921.

We probably need a photo if we may of the officers wearing the curved Australia title on their collars. They were authorised to wear the unit numeral and corps designation on their collars but most of them appear to have avoided doing that as well.

Cheers, Keith
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 22-01-17, 12:25 PM
MartinRF MartinRF is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 74
Default some Australian shoulder titles

Hello,

There's a fine image on the AWM website of an officer wearing the unit and battalion number on his lapels, as you describe:

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P03302.001

It was also on the AWM site that I saw the small curved "AUSTRALIA" being worn on the collar of an officer, below the General Service badges - I will do some searching on there.

I have attached images of several instances of the P.M.F. Engineers wearing their badges while serving in the A.I.F.

All interesting stuff, indeed...

(8{
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ENGRS_0026.jpg (34.2 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg PMF_0006.jpg (41.0 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpg PMF_0007.jpg (27.6 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg PMF_0008.jpg (27.8 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg PMF_0014.jpg (32.7 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg PMF_0027.jpg (39.3 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg PMF_0028.jpg (34.8 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg PMF_0034.jpg (34.9 KB, 37 views)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 22-01-17, 06:38 PM
fairlie63's Avatar
fairlie63 fairlie63 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Claremont, Tasmania
Posts: 1,366
Default

Hi MartinRF,

Nice lot of photos. However they are not PMF personnel. It was the practice for many of the AIF enlistees to wear the collar badges of their previous militia unit, or to obtain those collar badges from the trade. There are many of gunners, AASC and AAMC around.

It was common for instance for gunners to wear the artillery senior NCOs gun as a cap badge and AFA collars, and wasn't restricted just to the first contingents but appears to persist through the war. It was however against regulations and there were a number of AIF Orders published stipulating that only the 'rising suns' were to be worn.

Keith
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 23-01-17, 09:25 AM
fairlie63's Avatar
fairlie63 fairlie63 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Claremont, Tasmania
Posts: 1,366
Default

The link you posted Martin appears to show that officer wearing a small title on his shoulder.

Quite sometime ago I noted something interesting as far as the contracts placed with Stokes and Sons Pty Ltd for copper oxidised badges for 3rd Military District (Victoria) go:

Req No 2043, approved 21 October 1914
Badges, copper, oxidised, "Australia", 6840 at 19s per 100
Badges, copper, oxidised, "Australia", 800 at 19s 10p per 100

Req No 2055-59, approved 14 October 1914
Badges, copper, oxidised, "Australia", 7880 at 19s per 100
Badges, copper, oxidised, "Australia", 55200 at 19s 10p per 100
Badges, copper, oxidised, "Australia", 18880 at 30s per 100

Req No 2270-74, approved 18 November 1914
Badges, copper, oxidised, "Australia", 71600 at 16s per 100

Just looking at the requisitions for October 1914 it would appear that THREE different variations of the AUSTRALIA title were produced for the AIF by Stokes. The reduction to 16s in November might just relate to the size of the order rather than a separate title variation.

You would have to wonder why there was a 35% increase in price for the 18880 "Australia" titles produced at 30s under this order - could it be those that have the voided AUSTRALIA mounted on the curved oxidised non-voided backing? Or was it the smaller "Australia" title?

Keith
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 23-01-17, 01:36 PM
MartinRF MartinRF is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 74
Default

Hello,

The Routine Orders to A.I.F. Depots in the United Kingdom certainly are a riveting read.


There is mention of a cloth version of the "AUSTRALIA" title being worn :

No. 1481. 10th January 1917. Dress.
3. The practice of wearing worsted Australias on the shoulder of greatcoats must cease. There is no authority for this, nor is the worsted Australia a regulation issue.


The price of badges/titles to the A.I.F. varied slightly in 1917 :

No. 2641. 26th March, 1917. Price List of Clothing, Kit and Necessaries.
.................................................. ........................... £ s d
Badges, hat, Commonwealth, copper, oxydised ... ... each 0 0 3
Badges, collar ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... each 0 0 2
Titles, "Australia" ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... each 0 0 2


No. 2306. 19th October, 1917. Clothing, Price List of.

Titles, "Australia" ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... each 0 0 3


On a slightly different topic, are there examples within collections of any/all of the A.I.F. regulation/approved, oxidised, metal Skill-at-Arms/Qualification/Trade badges? Attached are images of the ones that I have gathered over the years, though not yet complete, as well as an image of British Army badges, in gilding metal - not all of which were authorized by the A.I.F., but pictures exist of many of these being worn by A.I.F. personnel after successfully attending instructional courses (the Marksman qualification being such an example).

(8{
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MRF_20170122_211955604.jpg (69.8 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg MRF_BTB.jpg (65.3 KB, 58 views)
File Type: jpg MRF_ATB.jpg (63.1 KB, 50 views)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 23-01-17, 09:55 PM
badgecollector's Avatar
badgecollector badgecollector is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,239
Default

hi all
were the scouts badges authorised for wear by the AIF?
bc
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 23-01-17, 11:35 PM
kingsley kingsley is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,020
Default

I have often wondered just which worsted CLOTH trade and skill badges the first AIF was authorised to wear. The metal ones are reasonably well documented but not perhaps their exact date of introduction. I will have a look in my picture file when I have time and post some scans.
Secondly, Martin, can you tell me please what is the King's crown badge (on the bottom row of the blue picture) between the 7th LH title and the 13th ALH collar badge?
Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 24-01-17, 03:42 AM
vigilans's Avatar
vigilans vigilans is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 194
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinRF View Post
The small, curved "AUSTRALIA" titles were worn by Officers, on the lapels immediately underneath the General Service collars, but I have only seen these being worn early on - more commonly/perhaps even only within the First Contingent.

The "AUSTRALIA" title signified those troops destined for overseas service - hence the use of the term "Imperial" within "A.I.F.". The A.M.F. / P.M.F. did not use it, though there are evidences of P.M.F. badges being worn together with the "AUSTRALIA" shoulder title - these instances would have been those who had served in the P.M.F. (never much other than 10,000 strong) and had signed up for overseas service (in the A.I.F.).

Some more of my devices...

(8{
Never seen the Australia title worn on the collar, but below are some pics of numerals and other titles being worn on collars
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Collar badges and numerals.jpg (31.9 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg Collar badge with numerals.jpg (32.1 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg Collars and numerals.jpg (28.0 KB, 26 views)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 24-01-17, 04:08 AM
vigilans's Avatar
vigilans vigilans is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 194
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by badgecollector View Post
hi all
just arrived today.
including a few artillery for keith to enjoy.
and an awesome Victorian Rangers. seller thought its lugs were broken off and it had holes drilled in it. lol, of course there were never lugs and they were stitched onto the uniform.
bc
Rangers title with lugs
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_4574.jpg (24.8 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_4575.jpg (31.9 KB, 20 views)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:06 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.