Uniform with badges of LTC James A Turner Royal Scots KIA 26 July 1918

[Jeffweil]

Hello. I wanted to share this uniform and get some feedback on the insignia. Turner started the war as an enlisted man in the Royal Scots. He rose thru the ranks and was a Lt Col. commanding 2nd Batt. when he was killed in action on 26 July 1918.He won both the DSO and Military Cross, and was wounded 3 times. This tunic maker's label has his name listed as a Capt J A Turner. The tunic was later ungraded to reflect his LT Col rank.
I bought this tunic here in the US. It turns out that LTC Turner's Mother lived in Canada, and moved to the US after the war. I bought this tunic about 25 years ago thru a now closed Manion's Auction House. This means that the seller was probably a militaria collector. My dilemma has always been about the collar insignia. Did the last owner put on enlisted collar disks, or did LTC Turner wear them. They should be officer insignia, but I have always wondered if he continued to wear his enlisted collar insignia to show that he came up thru the ranks.
I would like any feedback on this topic. I would also like to find a set of bronze officer collar insignia for the Royal Scots. Anyone having a single or a pair to sell, I will not haggle about you asking price - I will just pay you with PayPal immediately.
Again, any feedback on the collar insignia topic would be greatly appreciated.

[Alex Rice]

Wow, that's a special piece of history!

[oc14]

I'm not entirely convinced that the medal ribbons have always been on that tunic. The red white and blue 1914 or 1914/15 star ribbon doesn't look like the original watered silk style of ribbon. Happy to be proven wrong

PL

[oc14]

Lt (Acting Lt Col) James Alexander Turner served in France & Flanders from 11/4/15 thus becoming entitled to the 1914/15 Star. I know that authority to wear the ribbon of the 1914 star was granted some time in 1918, I thought that the authority for the award (and subsequent wearing of the ribbon) of the 1914-15 Star was quite a bit later. Anyone know for certain when the authority to wear the 14-15 Star ribbon was granted ?

Thanks in advance

PL

[Voltigeur]

The First World War 1914 Star medal was authorized in April 1917, and the bar on 19 October 1919. It is often called the 'MONS STAR'.

The 1914-15 Star medal was authorized in December 1918.

From Veterans Affairs Canada
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/rememb...s/medal-type/1


Jo

[oc14]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

The First World War 1914 Star medal was authorized in April 1917, and the bar on 19 October 1919. It is often called the 'MONS STAR'.

The 1914-15 Star medal was authorized in December 1918.

From Veterans Affairs Canada
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/rememb...s/medal-type/1


Jo

So it appears that the tunic bears the ribbon of an award that wasn't authorised until 5 months after the death of the officer who wore the tunic. Call me suspicious but ………..

PL

[Alex Rice]

Added later or not, it seems fitting to have them there to honour the chap's achievements.

[Jeffweil]

Thanks guys

[grenadierguardsman]

Scots Guards cap star, or did the Royal Scots share the design ?
Andy

[oc14]

The 1914 Star ribbon and the 1914/15 star ribbons are identical. When the ribbon alone is worn, the ribbon of the 1914 star would normally have a small silver rosette added to indicate the difference between the two awards and also to indicate the award of the August to November date clasp. Either way, according the protocols of the time, there should not be a 1914/15 star ribbon on the tunic as , tragically, Lt Col Alexander had already been killed in action prior to the date on which the authority for wearing the ribbon had been granted. In my opinion, for what it's worth, all three ribbons appear to have been rather crudely added at a later date, whether as a tribute or otherwise, I don't know.

Again (and this is only my opinion), the collar badges may have been added later (it would not be considered normal practice for an officer to retain ORs pattern collar badges to show that he was an " ex ranker" - it just wouldn't be "the done thing". Furthermore (and I really don't wish to rain on your parade), the Tam O'Shanter (or Balmoral Bonnet) appears to be a coarse woolen other ranks pattern and not the superior quality, lighter coloured officers pattern. Just a few observations and not meant to be criticisms of an otherwise very attractive and attributed tunic.

PL

[oc14]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Scots Guards cap star, or did the Royal Scots share the design ?
Andy

Yes Andy, the Royal Scots did share the same pattern Cap Star

PL

[Voltigeur]

Andy (grenadierguardsman),here's your answer.
Jo


© IWM (HU 114256) Captain William Pat Arthur Bradshaw DSO. 1st Battalion, Scots Guards.




© IWM (HU 118277)
Lieutenant Colonel Harry Hugo Bernard Dyson DSO OBE. 2nd Battalion, Royal Scots.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by oc14

Yes Andy, the Royal Scots did share the same pattern Cap Star

PL

Thanks.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

Andy (grenadierguardsman),here's your answer.
Jo


© IWM (HU 114256) Captain William Pat Arthur Bradshaw DSO. 1st Battalion, Scots Guards.




© IWM (HU 118277)
Lieutenant Colonel Harry Hugo Bernard Dyson DSO OBE. 2nd Battalion, Royal Scots.

Thanks.
Andy

[Hoot]

Originally Posted by Alex Rice

Added later or not, it seems fitting to have them there to honour the chap's achievements.

Fair comment but wny not Squeak and Wilfred as well?. Seems odd either way. Realistically and for the sake of authenticity it should be just the DSO and MC ribbons.