79th Armoured Divison "Bull's Head"

[WJ Miller]

I would appreciate comments or thoughts on this patch for the 79 AD being offered on ebay right now.

It is embroidered thread on a borderless yellow felt/melton triangle. As a Canadian collector I remain relatively unfamiliar with British insignia. However the 1st Cdn Armd Carrier Regiment was attached to the 79th in 1944 and '45 and wore a version of this patch. I often see printed cloth versions of this for sale and a really bad embroidered version is regularly sold by a US vendor. There is also a legitimate Dutch woven type. However I don't recall ever seeing an embroidered type such as this for sale? Does such an animal exist?

Hi Bill,
first about the embroidered version: if we're talking about the same US Seller on eB..(Cunnard), then it is the best repro (yes, repro) on the market today. I bought his pairs as working on the 1st Lothians & Border Yeomanry. Having compared them to originals I've seen (I unfortunately don't own yet), it is very very close and very well made (at least the ones I got).
During WWII there were several embroidered versions: one with a black line all around the badge, close to the edge; another, as on this picture, with no black line, just the bull's head and the yellow background. Plus add the printed version and by looking at pictures of that time, there were at least 3 versions of the badge (and I guess more according to the sources).
Now, back to the link: already spotted it and wondered too.My hesitations concern the background material, the way the bull's head is embroidered and the glue on the back. I'm a bit skeptical.

[boots and saddles]

Never having seen an embroidered one I can't give an opinion, Mine is printed & have seen a lot of handling I have seen many printed ones. Ray

[ORISKANY]

Originally Posted by WJ Miller

I would appreciate comments or thoughts on this patch for the 79 AD being offered on ebay right now.

It is embroidered thread on a borderless yellow felt/melton triangle. As a Canadian collector I remain relatively unfamiliar with British insignia. However the 1st Cdn Armd Carrier Regiment was attached to the 79th in 1944 and '45 and wore a version of this patch. I often see printed cloth versions of this for sale and a really bad embroidered version is regularly sold by a US vendor. There is also a legitimate Dutch woven type. However I don't recall ever seeing an embroidered type such as this for sale? Does such an animal exist?

Hello,

Here is a quote from the late Major John Waring's 'British Regular and Territorial Army cloth formation signs & titles' pamphlet no 1.

"163. 79 Armoured Division. Black and White bulls head, red horns and nostrils in yellow triangle. Emb on felt.

164. 79 Armoured Division. As for 163 but with a black border. Printed."

The printed version has been reproduced as can be seen in 54 Bty's repro and fakes album on this forum. I have a similar printed sign which was shown to the then Quartermaster of 32 Armoured Engineer Regiment in Germany. He confirmed that such a printed badge had been worn by his Regiment for a short time. This is not to be confused with the printed badge which was cut from the centre of the Regiment's tracksuit badge and worn on a brassard in the 1990-91 Gulf War. This is reported in Marc Sherriff's book British Army Unit Identification Badges of the 1990's Vol 1 page 21.

The item in question looks very nice and bright considering it is purported to be a WW2 vintage badge. Of course it may have been in a book or box somewhere for over 60 years. I always think it is a good idea to at least have a look, after all you can always return it should you be unhappy.


Hope this helps.

ORISKANY.

[Bill A]

Bill, To put a different perspective on your question, perhaps reading between the lines, I don't believe any of the 1 CACR members had the melton/embroidered formation patch. The only examples I have seen for the 1 CACR (and I will bow to your expertise in this area), are the printed or bevo type weave.

[WJ Miller]

Hi Bill, you are correct no members of the 1CACR were issued an embroidered variety of bull's head. (or none that I have seen to date) I just happen to like this design

Since none of our guys came home with embroidered types I was curious about the authenticity of this patch. It was actually your post about the odd SHAEF patch that lead me to look all the patches that the vendor is offering.

I have collected quite a few items related to the 79th AD. They published a mimeographed weekly newspaper which I am fortunate enough to have found six or seven issues of from the winter and spring of 1945 (including one that describes the horrific discovery of the Belsen concentration camp.) I have a couple of photos of British members of the 79th (49 RTR/APCR and RCE), those photos only show printed cotton patches on their BD (again 1944-45 time period).

Veterans of the 1CACR have a fondness for their attachment to the 79th and pride in wearing the bull's head patch. Ken Ramsden in his book, "The Canadian Kangaroos in World War II", described having the bull's head painted on a vehicle was like saying "Open Sesame" to the provost.

Thanks everybody for their input!

[WJ Miller]

On the weekend at the annual Toronto reunion luncheon for the "kangaroos", the 1CACR Archive was presented with a very unusual artifact (and I suspect rare/one-of a kind).

A fresh roll of 79th Armoured Division (dutch weave) sleeve patches. The roll contains 34 pristine patches and is nearly 6 feet in length. There was also a small length (in comparison) of the cotton printed type, only 4 patches conjoined.

Needless to say i was quite amazed to see these, never having seen more than a single joined pair (and those are scarce!). And before anyone asks... sorry, this roll will be kept intact as is. None for sale.

[Old Smelly]

A nice lot, and right to keep them together. The Dutch weave type are particularly hard to find
Lee

[mbkk]

Originally Posted by WJ Miller

Hi Bill, you are correct no members of the 1CACR were issued an embroidered variety of bull's head. (or none that I have seen to date) I just happen to like this design

Since none of our guys came home with embroidered types I was curious about the authenticity of this patch. It was actually your post about the odd SHAEF patch that lead me to look all the patches that the vendor is offering.

I have collected quite a few items related to the 79th AD. They published a mimeographed weekly newspaper which I am fortunate enough to have found six or seven issues of from the winter and spring of 1945 (including one that describes the horrific discovery of the Belsen concentration camp.) I have a couple of photos of British members of the 79th (49 RTR/APCR and RCE), those photos only show printed cotton patches on their BD (again 1944-45 time period).

Veterans of the 1CACR have a fondness for their attachment to the 79th and pride in wearing the bull's head patch. Ken Ramsden in his book, "The Canadian Kangaroos in World War II", described having the bull's head painted on a vehicle was like saying "Open Sesame" to the provost.

Thanks everybody for their input!

My Grandfather was in the 79th Armored Division and I'm in the process of framing 2 of his photos from the period in uniform featuring the 79th Armored Division Sleeve Patch, along with 4 of his campaign/service medals.

I'm also awaiting a copy of his file from the M.O.D so his Service Number, Rank and Regiment along with service dates and any other extras can be added.

What would really finish the frame, would be an "ORIGINAL" 79th Armored Division Sleeve Patch, if you know someone who has one for sale.

Much Appreciated.

[mbkk]

If anyone has, can help, or can push me in the right direction.

I'm also in need of an original Armored Corps 'Tank' sleeve patch, white cotton thread embroidered type.

Regards