Royal Fusiliers

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by johnG

Hi Toby,
'Artillery' in the sense of the HAC originally meant bows and arrows, not guns, and we had Pepys 'Trailing a pike in the Artillery Ground'.

Sadly I simply cannot remember what shoulder title preceded the long, white on red 'Honourable Artillery Company' shoulder title in the Infantry Battalion, or what was originally worn by the Cadet Battalion, but I do have a very clear recollection of brass HA.C. shoulder titles worn by 1st and 2nd Regiments HAC, and G Locating Battery, and those brass titles had been around for a very long time.

I think I remember a khaki serge slip on s/title with H.A.C. embroidered on it in black, but for the life of me I cannot remember seeing it worn.......I can only plead it was a long, long time ago.

I will peck away at this one, as I would like to get it sorted.

Regards,

John

It will be interesting to see what you come up with John. For me there are two fairly clear facts, the badge is that of the infantry part of the HAC, the titles are not white on red, but red on something dark. I know this latter part through familiarity in my own service with how modern B&W photography rendered those colours and I have had first hand experience (i.e. worn and been photographed in) both colour combinations.

[grey_green_acorn]

Originally Posted by johnG

Hi Toby,
'Artillery' in the sense of the HAC originally meant bows and arrows, not guns.

Sadly I simply cannot remember what shoulder title preceded the long, white on red 'Honourable Artillery Company' shoulder title in the Infantry Battalion, or what was originally worn by the Cadet Battalion, but I do have a very clear recollection of brass HA.C. shoulder titles worn by 1st and 2nd Regiments HAC, and G Locating Battery, and those brass titles had been around for a very long time.

I think I remember a khaki serge slip on s/title with H.A.C. embroidered on it in black, but for the life of me I cannot remember seeing it worn.......I can only plead it was a long, long time ago.

I will peck away at this one, as I would like to get it sorted.

Regards,

John

John, this is the black on khaki slip on HAC title and the white on red Honourable Artillery Company (long) title

Tim

[johnG]

Many thanks Tim. That is indeed the black on khaki slip-on I remember from way back, but was not at all sure if my memory was playing me tricks. Thanks for the reassurance.

Regards,

john

[johnG]

As shown on another thread on this forum, there most definitely was a red on blue H.A.C. title, both in the form of a shoulder title and a slip-on. This would have been before my time, and as mentioned in an earlier post I do not now what shoulder title was worn by the Cadet Bn HAC before 1948. I joined the Cadet Battalion sometime in 1947 or early 1948, and was issued with a white on red 'long' shoulder title

I think it is now sorted. I believe the long 'Honourable Artillery Company' white on red shoulder title was introduced when the Infantry Battalion was re-formed in 1947, and the 'long' shoulder title adopted by the Cadet Battalion at the same time.

From its inception in 1942 to 1947 it would appear the Cadet Battalion wore the red on blue shoulder title 'H.A.C.', which was no doubt available in large quanitities due to the existence of the Artillery Batteries in the form of 1st Regiment, 2nd Regiment, and 'G' Locating Battery.

The photo clearly shows an Infantry Battalion cap badge, but apparantly worn by Cadets, and with a red on blue shoulder title it would have been taken some time between 1942 and 1947. It does not appear to have been taken in the vicinity of the unit's HQ at Armoury house, and may I suggest it might have been taken in Brookwood, on the route between the railway station and the regiment's 'Hut' at Bisley.

[johnG]

After posting the above I typed 'Brookwood photographs' into Google, and immediately found a picture which looks very similar to the background shown in the photo in the original post to this thread. Not reproduced here due to copyright.

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by johnG

After posting the above I typed 'Brookwood photographs' into Google, and immediately found a picture which looks very similar to the background shown in the photo in the original post to this thread. Not reproduced here due to copyright.

Very similar, but I think Connaught Road, Brookwood looks a bit more "up-market"?

[johnG]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

Very similar, but I think Connaught Road, Brookwood looks a bit more "up-market"?

I do hope the fish and chip shop is still there.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by johnG

As shown on another thread on this forum, there most definitely was a red on blue H.A.C. title, both in the form of a shoulder title and a slip-on. This would have been before my time, and as mentioned in an earlier post I do not now what shoulder title was worn by the Cadet Bn HAC before 1948. I joined the Cadet Battalion sometime in 1947 or early 1948, and was issued with a white on red 'long' shoulder title

I think it is now sorted. I believe the long 'Honourable Artillery Company' white on red shoulder title was introduced when the Infantry Battalion was re-formed in 1947, and the 'long' shoulder title adopted by the Cadet Battalion at the same time.

From its inception in 1942 to 1947 it would appear the Cadet Battalion wore the red on blue shoulder title 'H.A.C.', which was no doubt available in large quanitities due to the existence of the Artillery Batteries in the form of 1st Regiment, 2nd Regiment, and 'G' Locating Battery.

The photo clearly shows an Infantry Battalion cap badge, but apparantly worn by Cadets, and with a red on blue shoulder title it would have been taken some time between 1942 and 1947. It does not appear to have been taken in the vicinity of the unit's HQ at Armoury house, and may I suggest it might have been taken in Brookwood, on the route between the railway station and the regiment's 'Hut' at Bisley.

Well done John, I think you have it spot on. The caps the men are wearing had been universally replaced by berets by 1947 so from the uniform evidence of cap badges, cloth shoulder titles, and your knowledge of the HAC, that is a good bit of deduction and 'detective' work.

[johnG]

Thanks Toby. My Fee Note is in the post.

John

[Mike Jackson]

Many thanks to all the researchers. The two enlargements attached may be of some help. What do you make of the badge on the bespectacled cadet's upper right arm? A London District formation sign? The two titles - although not relevant to the enquiry - are added for good measure.
HAC.01.jpgHAC.03.jpgimg157.jpg

[johnG]

That elargement has muddied the water..........The cap badge looks more like a Fusilier one to me, and one stripe? Lance Corporal's in the HAC Cadets and the HAC Infantry Battalion wore TWO stripes, all same Grenadier Guards. Oh well, it was interesting working on the assumption of them being HAC Cadets and building up a case to fit, and I will now bow out and leave it to others.

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by johnG

That elargement has muddied the water..........The cap badge looks more like a Fusilier one to me, and one stripe? Lance Corporal's in the HAC Cadets and the HAC Infantry Battalion wore TWO stripes, all same Grenadier Guards. Oh well, it was interesting working on the assumption of them being HAC Cadets and building up a case to fit, and I will now bow out and leave it to others.

Hi gents

Given the above, could this in fact be a group of combined cadets, possibly a London District cadet shooting team?

Ry

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by johnG

That elargement has muddied the water..........The cap badge looks more like a Fusilier one to me, and one stripe? Lance Corporal's in the HAC Cadets and the HAC Infantry Battalion wore TWO stripes, all same Grenadier Guards. Oh well, it was interesting working on the assumption of them being HAC Cadets and building up a case to fit, and I will now bow out and leave it to others.

Yes I agree John, with the close up the badge looks more like Royal Fusiliers as per the OP's thoughts. I have no idea how they could be wearing red on dark blue titles though.

[johnG]

I is a strange one Toby, and I am very glad it was introduced here as it has given me much pleasure in following it up, and it could have fitted an HAC Cadet profile...until the enlarged photo blew that out of the water.

Regards,

John

[johnG]

Just a suggestion. Perhaps the lads in the picture were wearing some old pattern shoulder titles, dredged up from some old, half forgotten stores.

For a red on dark blue shoulder title for Royal Fusiliers, could it be WW1 vintage shoulder titles for 2 Battalion London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers).

Regards,

john