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  #1  
Old 12-10-14, 02:53 PM
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davidwyke davidwyke is offline
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Default USN PATCHES - WW2 ?

Following on from my previous USMC thread, here are 4 USN patches for opinions/comments please.

1) Construction Battalions (used condition)
2) Patrol Torpedo Boats (almost certainly a "Patch King" copy from the late 1940's/early 1950's)
3) Naval Amphibious Forces
4) Minecraft Personnel

Thanks for looking at them all!

David
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  #2  
Old 12-10-14, 09:19 PM
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Hi David,

My advise on how to tell WWII originals from later reproductios in your USMC post also applies here. Notice the difference in the PT patch back compared to the others. I don't know much about Patch King other than that they exist and that I have a few. The other 3 I would feel good about.

Regards,
Don
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Old 13-10-14, 01:40 PM
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Hi Don

Thanks again for the advice.

Good old Patch King, did they realise the problems they would cause 60 years down the line? I don't know much about them either although I think they can sometimes be a controversial subject!

As far as I know they were an embroidery company, probably located NYC? I don't know how long they were in business but they seem to have been most prolific in the 1950's.

They produced copy US cloth insignia going back to at least the WW1 era shoulder patches. I'm not sure if they copied cloth badges in general or just rare ones. I have about 8 patches in my collection which I would attribute to them, the originals of which would all be hard to find, such as the PT patch shown here. I think they also copied UK & Canadian cloth badges, probably to a lesser extent than the US ones.

One thing their products all seem to have in common is the white "cheese cloth" type backing which you pointed out on the PT patch.

Perhaps other forum members can expand or correct the above info?

Something I would really like to know is this: were some legitimate US patches (WW2 or earlier) manufactured with the "cheese cloth" type backing either by Patch King or other companies? The reason I ask is that it's not unusual to see US patches with this type backing offered for sale as authentic originals, for big money. It would be great if the answer to my question is "yes" as that would mean some of the patches in my collection which I assume to be Patch King copies might be genuine after all!

David

Last edited by davidwyke; 13-10-14 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 13-10-14, 02:37 PM
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David,

I copied this about Patch King: Reproductions of World War Two insignia had been created ever since the end hostilities. Manufacturers had created a tremendous capacity during the war to produce patches and the quartermaster corps abruptly canceled most existing contracts at war's end. At the same time many persons had begun to collect the colorful shoulder sleeve insignia (patches) worn by the returning troops. A number of firms got the idea of marketing patches to collectors in the same way stamps and coins were collected. They even offered albums for the storage of a collection. The best known of these firms was "The Patch King." Their stock was mostly surplus patches but they also supplemented their inventory by producing new insignia. In some cases, the new insignia they produced were unlike originals. The actual name of "The Patch King" was Sol Marks. He is widely given credit for developing the idea of marketing patches to collectors and advertised introductory offers of a small group of inexpensive patches to beginning collectors in national magazines. The Patch King was not the only firm in the business. These firms were not attempting to trick or deceive anyone. Their prices were modest and most collectors were not that particular regarding the issue of originally. Most of these firms disappeared during the 1960s, perhaps as a result of anti-military feelings generated during the Vietnam era. A number of older collectors, including the author, dealt with them during their heyday. Some of these distinctive older reproductions are becoming collectible in their own right.

Don
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Old 13-10-14, 04:34 PM
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David,

Here is an example of a U.S. patch with a cheesecloth backing. I also have several in my collection. I don't believe all Patch King insignia were made with this kind of backing. If you post a picture of yours I can give you my opinion.

Don
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Old 13-10-14, 04:55 PM
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Hi Don

The above info is very interesting. It seems to suggest that the Patch King may have had a contract to produce official patches during WW2 and then sold surplus patches to collectors post war, in addition to producing new patches.

Perhaps it's wrong to brand all the "cheese cloth" backed patches as later copies.

I have about 7 or 8, I'll go through all my US patches when I get chance and put photos on within a few days.

Thanks again.

David
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Old 16-10-14, 01:06 PM
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As promised, here are the patches from my collection with the "cheese cloth" type backing (I thought I had a couple more but on closer examination they have more conventional stitching and I'm happy with them):

A 1) 3rd Ranger Bn
2) 4th Ranger Bn
3) 5th Ranger Bn
(Note they3rd Bn has slightly thicker lettering compared to the other two, the patch itself is also slightly thicker).

B 1) 11th Division (WW1 Pattern)
2) Army Air Corps (1st Pattern)
3) USN Patrol Torpedo Boats

I think the Army Air Corps patch might be OK in that the backing is a tighter and neater weave than the others. I still think the other 5 are Patch King copies but would be very happy to be proved wrong!

David
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  #8  
Old 16-10-14, 04:11 PM
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Hi David,

I posted a query on a U.S. Militaria forum about these. So far 2 replies. They both like the 3rd ranger tab but not the other 2. Both think that the 11th division is a Patch King but like the other two. Ranger arcs are much sought after and widely reproduced. I'm still looking for them for myself. I also have queries on two groups on Facebook but no replies yet. I will keep you informed.

Don
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Old 16-10-14, 10:27 PM
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Hi Don

Many thanks for your help. I was expecting 1/6 to be authentic so 3/6 sounds good to me, particularly the Ranger patch.

David
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Old 28-10-14, 11:44 PM
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I'd like to inject a couple of points.

1. Not all cheesecloth backed patches are reproductions. This type of material is used as an anchor for the design on a wool patch. There are original WW2 patches embroidered on wool with a cheesecloth or gauze backing material
2. Patch King didn't produce anything. They bought a large amount of original surplus insignia to sell to collectors. All of their WW1 insignia are copies, most done by a man named George Studly out of New York State. He originally sold these patches to WW1 veterans for reunions. Patch King sold his products.
3. Look at the three Ranger scrolls and notice the letters of the 3rd are thicker than the other two. That is the "tell" for an original scroll.

Garth
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  #11  
Old 16-11-14, 08:15 PM
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Hi at last have managed to upload some of these pictures would like to know if I have labelled them up O/K some are WW2 but most later thanks for your help billy

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...p?albumid=2300
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