Which cap badge for FSSF maroon beret?

[ledfut]

Just picked up a copy of Ken Joyce's excellent book "Snow Plough and the Jupiter Deception". According to this book:

"On arrival in the U.K. many privately aquired maroon berets...Because the 1stCSSB never had a cap badge, initially other ranks wore their US Army Parachute Badge or their now redundant Force crossed arrow collar disc. However, shortly before the end of the war, somebody had Hobsons in London make a brass crossed arrow cap badge for the beret. Since officers had an ample supply of the U.S. made arrow, this applied mainly to the other ranks. They too affixed these arrows to their berets over a red/orange coloured rectangular swatch of wool." (p. 276)

My wife's grandfather was not an officer. He would not have worn the crossed arrow badge initially. By April, he was already with the Perth Regiment. I am guessing he either wore the US Parachute Badge or the crossed arrow collar disc. Perhaps, however, he did receive a Hobsons badge before going to the Perth Regiment.

You can still see the pin/lug holes on the beret where a badge was affixed. I am trying to determine which, if any, of these badges (the US Parachute Badge, the Force crossed arrows collar disc, or the Hobsons crossed arrow cap badge) were worn on this beret.

I have attached a closeup picture of the beret, showing the pin/lug holes and a vertical slit. The pin/lug holes are exactly 3/4 inch apart. Did any of these badges happen to have pins/lugs at this distance apart? And what about the slit? Were the berets manufactured this way, or was it something done by the individual to facilitate mounting the badge? Does it give any hints as to the type of badge?

[edstorey]

WWII Canadian Berets did not have holes or slits manufactured into them, this had to be done by the person mounting the badge which as you can appreaciate could lead to problems. Your pin holes look like they are for US Parachute Wings. The slit is for another badge, what was this persons parent unit or where did he go after serving in the FSSF?

[ledfut]

Originally Posted by edstorey

WWII Canadian Berets did not have holes or slits manufactured into them, this had to be done by the person mounting the badge which as you can appreaciate could lead to problems. Your pin holes look like they are for US Parachute Wings. The slit is for another badge, what was this persons parent unit or where did he go after serving in the FSSF?

He served with the Perth Regiment after serving in the FSSF.

I have a WW2 era Perth Regiment badge (it did not come from my wife`s grandfather, however). I pulled it from its display and measured the distance between the lugs...almost exactly .75 inches apart!

Is it possible he would have worn his Perth badge with the maroon beret, or would this have been frowned upon?

[Bill A]

It would have been frowned upon, but at the end of hostilities, adherence to dress regs and enforcement of the same became lax. He may have pulled the beret out of his kit bag and worn it to show his connection to the FSSF. He could very well have worn that on his way home, or perhaps when he returned home he combined the badge and beret.
Speculation, but possible.

[ledfut]

It looks like it might be a possibility then, even if the Perth badge might have been added post war.

Still waiting to hear from an expert to see how far apart the lugs are on a typical US Parachute badge. From the pictures I have seen, the lugs look to be too far apart. The badges are about 1.5" across, and the lugs are almost at the outside edges. Does anyone have an exact measurement?

As far as the FSSF collar discs go, what kind of pin setup did they usually have on the back?

[sapper 83]

The collar disk had one screw post in the center.

[ledfut]

Originally Posted by sapper 83

The collar disk had one screw post in the center.

That is what I thought. Thanks for confirming. This rules out the collar disc.

It is starting to look like he probably wore the Perth Badge with the beret. I am still trying to learn the measurements of the lugs on the US Parachute Badge. If the Parachute badge doesn't fit (lugs too far apart), then I would be pretty confident in assuming that it was in fact the Perth Badge that he wore with the beret, as the distance between the lug holes is almost a perfect fit.

There is also a very faint depression in the wool near the lug holes (doesn't show in the picture), perhaps left from the edge of the badge that was mounted there. When I get home, I will take a look with the Perth badge and see if it matches up at all.

[ledfut]

Mystery solved!

I got home and placed my Perth badge onto the beret - it fits perfectly! Close inspection reveals that the impressions on the cap are an exact match with the edges of the badge, particularly at the points of the leaf, where the edges might have dug into the beret on occasion. On the left point, three tiny impressions coincide exactly with the sharp tips on the leaf.

With the badge in place, you can see how the wool surrounding the badge conforms perfectly to the shape of the Perth badge, like it has been broken in over time to accept the shape of the badge. It is obvious that a Perth badge had been on this beret for a long enough period of time to leave a subtle but distinctive imprint on the wool behind and around it!

There is no longer any doubt in my mind that my wife's grandfather had his Perth Regiment cap badge on this beret! It may not have been worn as such during the war, but he probably at least wore it this way post-hostilities or upon his return home. It would certainly have looked quite sharp with his Perth Regiment battle dress jacket, which had the maroon 5th Canadian Armoured Division formation patch as well as the FSSF spearhead patch. I believe I read in Joyce's book that Forcemen posted permanently to other regiments were to remove the spearhead patch from the sleeve. He probably had it sewn back on post-war and wore the jacket as such with the maroon beret and Perth badge. Although a Perth at the end of the war, he would have been most proud of his service with the FSSF and I am sure he would have proudly shown his affiliation with them.


Thanks, Ed for the tip! I would never have thought to check the Perth Badge. It never occurred to me that he might have worn it on a maroon 1stCSSB beret.

[edstorey]

A very nice combination and I am glad everything worked out for you. I wish I had been at the pier in Halifax and New York 65 years ago when all of these guys were getting off the ships to return to Canada - I bet there were some nice combinations, like yours, that no-one would have thought were ever worn.

Make sure you keep everything together and documented.

[Seaforth Highlander]

Originally Posted by chaudiere1944

I completely agree with what Ed said about Museum's and potential for inaccuracies in their displays.

Although I am not very knowledgeable with respect to FSSF (although I am sure when I purchase Crimson Spearhead from you Clive I might be better acquainted with the material), I have pics from both the Canadian War Museum (CWM) and Petawawa (Pet) of their displays for FSSF. Again, I am not very knowledgeable with FSSF...so I would be curious to see how well these Museum displays portray an accurate depiction of FSSF.

This post has the 2 pics Canadian Badger referred to in his post.

Mike

Be careful with museum displays - and collector displays. Unless you talk to them and get the specifics that this is the way it was received from the veteran if COULD be put together for exhibit. e.g. note that the CWM tunic has no collar badges. The FSSF uniform on display at PEI military museum in Charlottetown has been assembled by the museum for display purposes.

[Seaforth Highlander]

As is shown in photos, and I know of a documented example of a maroon beret from a Canadian FSSF Lieutenant that is preserved in a collection with the officers' collar badge as a cap badge, it was fairly common to wear the collar badge as a cap badge on the maroon beret after the FSSF were disbanded.

I do not believe that the maroon beret was worn by them prior to disbandment of FSSF and when Canadians went back to Canadian uniforms they needed something to wear. Certainly the FSSF vets I interviewed denied or did not mention the maroon beret while active with FSSF - and the berets in the movie made them cringe just as much as the staged show of the phony "highlander" in the bar fight who flashed the camera but was not regimentally dressed made me cringe.

The US made versions of FSSF officers' collar badges have the two clutch pins and there is a very scarce allegedly Canadian variant (I used to have one) with lugs for a split pin(s). The officers' collar badge was the two crossed arrows and the Enlisted Men (Other Ranks) had crossed arrows on a disc. By the way the Officers' pattern FSSF collar badges with "D-22" marking stamped into the back are apparently post-WWII. I know they also existed with the Meyer maker's name (again, I had one years ago).

[ledfut]

Originally Posted by ledfut

Mystery solved!

I got home and placed my Perth badge onto the beret - it fits perfectly! Close inspection reveals that the impressions on the cap are an exact match with the edges of the badge, particularly at the points of the leaf, where the edges might have dug into the beret on occasion. On the left point, three tiny impressions coincide exactly with the sharp tips on the leaf.

With the badge in place, you can see how the wool surrounding the badge conforms perfectly to the shape of the Perth badge, like it has been broken in over time to accept the shape of the badge. It is obvious that a Perth badge had been on this beret for a long enough period of time to leave a subtle but distinctive imprint on the wool behind and around it!

There is no longer any doubt in my mind that my wife's grandfather had his Perth Regiment cap badge on this beret! It may not have been worn as such during the war, but he probably at least wore it this way post-hostilities or upon his return home. It would certainly have looked quite sharp with his Perth Regiment battle dress jacket, which had the maroon 5th Canadian Armoured Division formation patch as well as the FSSF spearhead patch. I believe I read in Joyce's book that Forcemen posted permanently to other regiments were to remove the spearhead patch from the sleeve. He probably had it sewn back on post-war and wore the jacket as such with the maroon beret and Perth badge. Although a Perth at the end of the war, he would have been most proud of his service with the FSSF and I am sure he would have proudly shown his affiliation with them.


Thanks, Ed for the tip! I would never have thought to check the Perth Badge. It never occurred to me that he might have worn it on a maroon 1stCSSB beret.

Since my last post on this thread back in January, I have come across some photos belonging to my wife's grandmother that confirm once and for all which badge was worn on this particular beret. Among the photos is one dated April 5th, 1946 (the day of his discharge back in Winnipeg) where he is clearly wearing the maroon beret with the Perth Regiment badge. My wife's grandmother confirmed that he must have picked up this cap sometime after return to Canada as she does not remember him ever wearing it while he was courting her in Delfzijl.

[DavidS]

Originally Posted by sapper 83

The collar disk had one screw post in the center.

I was under the impression the crossed-arrows disk should have the thin brass insert strip with 2 clutch pins, and that the centre post screw type is not the right vintage, esp. the one with the arrows attached to the centre bolt.