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  #241  
Old 25-01-21, 01:51 AM
alan alfred
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Also although new to collecting poppy badges I have collected mills grenades for 30 years and have donated a couple to the British museum. It took years to collect originals but through investigation you eventually get a genuine part. These are often hard to find as fakes are numerous.
Fakers are trying to make a fast buck not produce exact replicas.
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  #242  
Old 25-01-21, 02:04 AM
alan alfred
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Anyway Mike thanks for your help. I will continue my investigations and hopefully one day complete the set I am looking to collect.

When I bought my 1913/2013 I queried why centennial dates before ww1 and got both the normal single date and the larger double date. I got them before the 1914 centennials came out so the counterfeiter must of been clairvoyant lol.

I only doudted
their auththentity when you displayed your set
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  #243  
Old 25-01-21, 08:50 AM
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Mike_2817 and I have had many discussions about the numerous 'variations' around including the CP and CaringPlus ones and I value his opinions as he has first hand experience of what was issued to PAO's.

The 2016 colour variation is a prime example , I got one poppy from PAO and one from PoppyShop they were completely different shades of red but both were official issues.

Regarding the 1913/2013 one , there is also a 1911/2011 and 1912/2012 but I have found no evidence of them ever being officially issued. One seller claimed they were 'trial' versions for the 1914-1918 set but I've not come across anything to back this up.

I have an 'unofficial' page of "dodgy" poppies that includes the 11/12/13 double dated ones , a 2010 (wrong size) with leaf on wrong side , single dated 2014/2015/2017/2018 pins and a "geniune/rare" 30mm 2007 pin !

If I ever spot a poppy pin I'm not sure about I always seek (and heed) the advice of others .

.
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  #244  
Old 25-01-21, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan alfred View Post
The bags are the same and so are the staples underx50 mag.
One point to consider is that "official" dated poppies were manufactured in factories in China , no doubt the "unofficial" ones were also made in either the same or neighbouring factories (some who would have ignored copyrights) . So it is possible/probable that they used the exact same bags/staples.

I came across one that was selling the Commemorative Somme/Passchendaele poppies and actually using photos taken directly from the PoppyShop website. On inspection the front of the poppies looked "passable" but the rear detail was obviously wrong.

I reported the site to the RBL but I guess they would have had problems enforcing copyright until the items were sold in the UK.

.
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  #245  
Old 25-01-21, 01:38 PM
alan alfred
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This is a nightmare.

I have a 2010 with leaf on left side and slightly bigger than my 2011.

Also a single dated 2018

They look brilliant but now I am completely at a loss of how to judge.

In a few years these rogue badges will be accepted as genuine.

Funny how the genuine 2010 has the leaf on the right and the suspect has it on the left
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  #246  
Old 25-01-21, 01:45 PM
alan alfred
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Do your fake poppy badges has a matrix pattern on the back?

Also your point of using similar dies/factories could it be possible a lot of the variations are prototypes set to go?

Also if I was going to make a counterfeit why not just use the same dies? Why make obvious differences?

Is there any way of finding out who ordered what and when?

Ordnance always had a paper trail, pos/invoice etc
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  #247  
Old 25-01-21, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan alfred View Post
This is a nightmare.

I have a 2010 with leaf on left side and slightly bigger than my 2011.

Also a single dated 2018

They look brilliant but now I am completely at a loss of how to judge.

In a few years these rogue badges will be accepted as genuine.

Funny how the genuine 2010 has the leaf on the right and the suspect has it on the left
The leaf at 11 o'clock was first introduced in 2011 (previously the leaf was on the other side 2 o'clock) , the 2012 and 2013 dated pins have the leaf at either 11 o'clock or 10 o'clock depending on if they came from POA's/Poppy sellers or from Poppy Shop.

NB. The oval Passchendale 1917 - 2017 pin was also sold in 2 different styles depending on who you bought if from , one had a leaf and the other didn't.

All the single dated pins , 2006 - 2013 , should be the same size.

.
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  #248  
Old 25-01-21, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan alfred View Post
Do your fake poppy badges has a matrix pattern on the back?

Also your point of using similar dies/factories could it be possible a lot of the variations are prototypes set to go?

Also if I was going to make a counterfeit why not just use the same dies? Why make obvious differences?

Is there any way of finding out who ordered what and when?

Ordnance always had a paper trail, pos/invoice etc
The 2010 (fake) and the single dated 2014/2015/2017/2018 all have the crisscross matrix pattern as do some of the small 'generic' poppy pins.

All my genuine pins are either smooth backed or marked CP/CaringPlus.

There have been a couple of trial/prototype badges but PAO's (Poppy Appeal Organisers) are aware of these and none of the fakes I have seen ever fell into this catagory.

Regarding obvious differences , how many people would know what is correct and what is wrong ? It has taken me a couple of years to work it out and that was only due to help from other collectors.

Paper trial !

.
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  #249  
Old 25-01-21, 03:36 PM
alan alfred
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Thanks for the info.

So a quick rule of thumb is if it has the cross matrix back pattern it is fake.

I need to get photos of the backs from now on
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  #250  
Old 25-01-21, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan alfred View Post
Thanks for the info.

So a quick rule of thumb is if it has the cross matrix back pattern it is fake.

I need to get photos of the backs from now on
Have sent you a Private Message.

.
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  #251  
Old 25-01-21, 03:41 PM
alan alfred
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My fake centennial badge is the same size and does have cp on the plain back.

I remember when I bought it I thought it odd. I liked the bigger size but questioned the odd dates. I also bought the standard single dated at the same time. They were for me the first enamel badge I had seen for sale.
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  #252  
Old 25-01-21, 03:43 PM
alan alfred
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I have just received an answer from the seller of my 2010 left leaf. He said he got X10 from an office drawer in Northern Ireland.
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  #253  
Old 25-01-21, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan alfred View Post
Thanks for the info.

So a quick rule of thumb is if it has the cross matrix back pattern it is fake.

I need to get photos of the backs from now on
A 2007 pin going for 199.99 + 7.99 postage !

No cross matrix but check out the size 30mm x 20mm , it is bigger than even the double dated ones.

I got caught out early on with one of these , no photo of back and no size mentioned . It cost me 10.00 but it was a valuable lesson in checking back/size etc.

.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2007.jpg (51.4 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg 2007 R.jpg (55.6 KB, 4 views)
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  #254  
Old 25-01-21, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan alfred View Post
My fake centennial badge is the same size and does have cp on the plain back.

I remember when I bought it I thought it odd. I liked the bigger size but questioned the odd dates.
Those 3 badges are an enigma , they look 'right' but there is no proof they were official. I'll keep them in my "dodgy" collection and hope some evidence (either way) turns up in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alan alfred View Post
I have just received an answer from the seller of my 2010 left leaf. He said he got X10 from an office drawer in Northern Ireland.
If they were official and produced in 2010 there would have been more of them around , plus I've only seen them in the past year.

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  #255  
Old 25-01-21, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_vee View Post
A 2007 pin going for 199.99 + 7.99 postage !

No cross matrix but check out the size 30mm x 20mm , it is bigger than even the double dated ones.

I got caught out early on with one of these , no photo of back and no size mentioned . It cost me 10.00 but it was a valuable lesson in checking back/size etc.

.
I have a correct sized 2007 pin in front of me which matches the 2006 to 2010 right hand leaf pins on my display board. This is available to trade or offer. Also have all dates from 2011 onwards in the office.

Alan are you looking for any of the Poppy Commemorative Pins? as I have all but one spare (VJ70 Pin)
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