Coldstream Guards Badge/Capstar

[2747andy]

Andy,
the only 100% genuine Victorian Grenadier Guards badges I've come across have had the lugs N-S. And if you deduct from that, that I think your E-W example is suspect then you are correct! Look at the "cast" appearance, then compare the quality to the larger crown example you also have and make your own deductions!

Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Is your one the same as mine. ?

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Is your one the same as mine. ?

Yes,
and I've doubts about it!

The large crown one however is pucker!

Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

What i don`t understand or believe, is how someone can say from the position of the lugs the period of a badge. Unless of course there is evidence to prove other wise, ie in black and white. There are lots of badges of the Victorian period with the Victorian crown on, that have lugs north and south and also lugs east and west. This to me contradicts the lug theory. Who came up with this theory in the first place, im not knocking them i would like to know how and why the came to this decision. Like the Pagri belief, i have in books seen soldiers wearing the cap badge in such a position on the pagri that it is fixed with lugs only. So i believe that pagri badges do not necessarily have to have long sliders, there is no hard and fast rule to state otherwise. Again im not knocking anyone here but if we are going to state certain things then i believe we should provide some evidence.
Cheers Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Why dought it Andy, i think its ok.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

What i don`t understand or believe, is how someone can say from the position of the lugs the period of a badge. Unless of course there is evidence to prove other wise, ie in black and white. There are lots of badges of the Victorian period with the Victorian crown on, that have lugs north and south and also lugs east and west. This to me contradicts the lug theory. Who came up with this theory in the first place, im not knocking them i would like to know how and why the came to this decision. Like the Pagri belief, i have in books seen soldiers wearing the cap badge in such a position on the pagri that it is fixed with lugs only. So i believe that pagri badges do not necessarily have to have long sliders, there is no hard and fast rule to state otherwise. Again im not knocking anyone here but if we are going to state certain things then i believe we should provide some evidence.
Cheers Andy

Well I feel knocked!

Show me a genuine Victorian Grenadier Guards Grenade with lugs E-W, never mind black and white look in my Gren Gds album and all the genuine "Victorian" examples are lugged N-S and they're in colour!

Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Sorry you feel knocked, i believe your badges are genuine i would never say otherwise i believe mine are also. However our badges are not in question here Andy. All im after is some more evidence, and would like to know who came up with the lug info and how they got it. Why do you feel that your east and west Victorian grenade is fake?

[grenadierguardsman]

Is this ok, if not why.
Cheers Andy

[2747andy]

Andy,
I feel it is fake because it is inferior when compared to genuine examples, the cast looking surface and the poor quality overlay are off putting! One thing about Victorian and Edwardian made badges is their quality! The E-W QV cyphered badge in my album no longer inspires me with any confidence, I used to think it was OK but now that I've seen and have a genuine example I have taken my head out of the sand!

I did not want to bring this up before but the Crimean war ended in 1856, how many tourists in that time have returned with a genuine relic recovered from the battlefield??? I doubt if you will be the last either?

Best regards

Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

I understand what your saying Andy, the private collector i now is the owner of The Museum of the Sheremetyevs. The Guards collection from the Crimea is outstanding and an eye opener. He has a Coldstream Guards cap star there with now lugs and 4 holes for sewing it on to the Albert cap/bonnet. There is no other real difference to that of the more modern cap stars. The flea markets are also amazing the best i have seen since the Angle military market. This is were i got my cap star from, and a 44th foot pork pie numerals from. The Scots Fusilier badge came from this museum also, and its lugs are east and west. You can even visit the Sandbag battery dig about and you will find militaria, as i did in a mere 15 mins.
So you can understand know why i would like to know who came up with the lug info and why, because i have seen first hand Crimean period Guards badges Finally. So i can now have a bit more piece of mind.
Cheers Andy

[2747andy]

Andy,
do you honestly think, that after around 160 years you can have a quick rummage and find genuine Militaria lying about? I think someone might just be having a "Bubble Bath" with a few pre-positioned goodies laid out the night before?

You asked who came up with the info on lug positioning, well if you want facts here they are, the badge you show above with the VR cypher and E-W lugs is Fake, how do I know? I have one myself and just like you I was conned and I have shown images below to back up my thoughts. You will see that the suspect badge has a few areas of concern! Firstly signs that a slider has been previously fitted to either this badge or the donor from which it was copied? Therefore it dates post 1903 and should not have a "VR" cypher! The badge shows signs that it has been cast both at the front, at the base of the flames and at the rear in the bowl of the grenade. When compared to other Victorian Grenadier Grenades the lugs are flimsey and in the wrong position IMO. The holes for the wires to pass through are very fine and so are the wires themselves. I'm pretty sure that what we both have are copies made using a donor Grenade with the compact pattern flames and the overlay and crown from a button?

I've shown for comparison a Genuine WO's and SNCO's Grenade both of which have been fire gilt, the suspect badge marked with my concerns and a small selection of N-S lugged ORs genades, just look at the size and position of the lugs! There is also a slidered badge, of the same pattern as the suspected donor! I am sorry but I strongly suspect you've been had (twice)? I have not been to the Crimea but have visited WW1 and WW2 sites in Europe, there you can still buy badges from the "Battlefields" all fake or bought off Ebay to sell to tourists and I suspect it is the case in other parts of the world too?

Sorry Andy, but I'm now 100% certain my smaller crowned VR badge is a well made fake and a mistake I made early in my collecting past!

Best regards

Andy

[2747andy]

Andy,
I don't want to pour petrol on the fire, but going back to the Cap Star you showed at the start of this thread, as you have now explained that it was found burried in the Crimea, I think it is unlikely that it would have cleaned up so well if it had been in sandy soil for 160 years? It would after only a few years have gone blackish and pitted and could never IMO have been returned to it's current Gm condition?

Best regards

Andy

[Unknownsoldier]

The remains of the slider do seem conclusive, sorry. To play devils advocate the badge could have been relugged at some point, but then why no bottom lug fitment?...... The quality really doesn't compare either :/ I have 2 1000% original GG cap grenades from around 1914, and the quality of those is impeccable, no bubbles or pitting, The strengthening bar on your example, looks pitted, is it possible to get a side view, could it a one piece, i.e. cast on it, rather than brazed on later?

Tom

[grenadierguardsman]

Sorry Andy, we`ll just have to agree to disagree.

[2747andy]

Andy,
that's fine, but just compare it to the larger crowned pattern you have!

Best regards

Andy