Coldstream Guards Badge/Capstar

[KLR]

The first (FS) cap badge of the CGds was sealed in 1897. The original Pattern will be either in the NAM or the IWM (or Gds Mus !?). You should be able to see whether it has NS or EW loops.
However, I would offer a cautionary tale. I've seen the original 1896 Pattern for the earliest KLR cap badge and its loops are NS. I assumed that this was the norm - though TF badges appear to have either NS or EW. Anyway, imagine my surprise, and delight, at finding a KLR regular 1896 pattern badge with EW loops ! I am 100% certain that it is genuine and therefore do not believe that there is a hard and fast rule about orientation.
The RACD often distinguished between loops or vertical shanks (sliders) but I have never seen any mention of the orientation of loops - and I've looked through quite a lot of the RACD ledgers (at Kew).

[2747andy]

Julian,
when I said N-S loops for the Victorian pattern badges, it was in relation to this particular thread i.e. the Grenadier Guards Grenades, of which the only genuine examples I have come across have had N-S lugs. I also have SG & IG badges with N-S lugs too, which I suspect are early pattern and therefore I assume if and when I do find an early COLDM badge it will have them in a similar position?

As to other Regiments I think (?) it has to be to do with the shape and size of the badge and the most appropriate position to place the lugs i.e. narrow and grenade like badges such as RF, NF, RWF & Durham LI QVC badges all seem to have N-S lugs whereas wider badges S.Staffs & Derbs seem to almost always be E-W. Andy mentions ease of fitting to the Forage cap (FC) for the GREN GDS, but the FC as still worn today would have been impossible to fit N-S fitted lugged badges due to the internal set up. In Victorian times the head-dress differed and N-S fitments would have been fine (for Guards Head-dress).

Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Sorry Andy with reference to the Head dress of the mid Victorian era it would have been a nightmare to fit a badge with north and south lugs. I cant believe the statement you've just made, unbelievable.
Show me in black and white the lug info, i would find it very interesting.
What do you think to my Scots Fusilier Badge lugged east and west.



PS, Andy you are a very Knowledgeable chap, and i`ve learned a lot from you. But unless you can prove the lug info i and every one else should be a bit more open minded.

[Unknownsoldier]

The lug info thats been latched onto is the tiniest part of it, the casting mark,s the obvious bit where a sliders been removed the shoddy quality of the cipher, and the thin wire fixings that don't fit with a guaranteed genuine piece.

I have to say I am no guarantor of the lugs location being 100% accurate, but the rest of the points are logical and fit.

Tom

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Sorry Andy with reference to the Head dress of the mid Victorian era it would have been a nightmare to fit a badge with north and south lugs. I cant believe the statement you've just made, unbelievable.
Show me in black and white the lug info, i would find it very interesting.
What do you think to my Scots Fusilier Badge lugged east and west.



PS, Andy you are a very Knowledgeable chap, and i`ve learned a lot from you. But unless you can prove the lug info i and every one else should be a bit more open minded.

Andy,
O.K. I give up! You win and when you take your head back out of the sand and stop smarting about picking up a couple of duds, it has happened to us all, just look at your own badges and forgetting where the lugs are placed just look at the points Tom has also picked up on!!!! By the way it is a lot easier to slide a pin downwards between two lugs than it is horizontal? I am missing what point you want me to prove, I have shown all my genuine Victorian Grenadier Guards badges, all of which have their lugs N-S so there it is in the flesh, would you rather the images were in black and white!

P.s. what makes your Scots Guards cap star a Scots Fusilier Guards badge, the title was dropped in 1881 and I doubt your badge is anyway near that age?

Best regards

Andy

[2747andy]

Andy,
here you go, lug detail in "Black and White".

Best regards

Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

If i have some fakes then its not the end of the world, i will probably get a few more. Thats life.
But to come out with a statement referring to position of lugs with no evidence is beyond belief.
Why remove a slider to replace it with lugs east and west is beyond me and drill 3 holes? What i would do is drill 3 holes in a badge with lugs north and south already in, or even better a badge with lugs east and west.
I cannot answer why the badges are pitted, who knows, but the cyphers on all my badges pass the silver test.
As for the headdress point, i agree it is easier to fit a badge with lugs east and west, i will download some pics to highlight this point.

[2747andy]

Andy,
believe me your E-W badge is a copy! How do I know? I have one and like you I fell for it hook, line and sinker many years ago! I've since picked up a genuine example and there is no comparison!

Why make a copy? Because they are worth £100+, why not alter a Victorian ORs Grenade (plain ball)? Because they are not that common and worth far more than a bog standard Grenadier Guards badge, which you can pick up for just a few quid! Besides which the flame pattern differs so not any old grenade will do! Your badge (grenade part) and the one I have are not even genuine, they are cast copies, mine has also been poorly gilded to try to make it look more like the real thing! The genuine badges were fire gilt! The common trick was to remove the silver overlay from officers buttons, (but they too are not that common anymore) fit pins and apply it to a ORs Grenade!

I am not trying to make you look a fool here, just as always trying to help! I am absolutely certain that the E-W badge is an elaborate copy and I now rest my case, I will not add any more as I think I've made a strong enough arguement!

Best regards

Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

What im trying to say here Andy is, allegedly these photo`s date to about 1870. I believe that with these types of headdress a cap badge with lugs north and south would be a nightmare, i hope you agree.
But if these photo`s were dated to about 1870 it proves that the grenade as a cap badge certainly pre dates what Kipling and King believed. This is not meant to criticize them in any way shape or form, no one knows everything.
What i have been trying to say that is just maybe Guards badges have been made in the Victorian era with lugs east and west, like many other infantry badges have.
The alleged Coldstream Crimean period badge was the same colour as the Scots Fusilier Badge, until i soaked it in brick acid and water but i can`t prove that now.
But what i would like to know is why the Scots Fusilier badge a fake please.

[grenadierguardsman]

Andy i know were not trying to ridicule each other your opinion is very much appreciated, but i always like the black and white approach then no one is mistaken then.
Cheers Andy

[2747andy]

Andy,
I did not say your SG badge was a copy, it is a standard pattern original and probably dates post 1900's a few years after they dropped the Fusiliers from their title.

Show me a Victorian Grenade with E-W lugs and I'll back down on this! The lugs are often much more substantial and the flame pattern also differs on some!

Best regards

Andy

[KLR]

Oh dear, I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest. My comments were purely general and not related to any specific badge. I'm sorry if I confused the Coldstreams with the Grenadiers and I have no opinions about the specific badges discussed above. I did, in fact, wonder about the fittings of badges in relation to their size and shape and of the headgear they were (intended to be) worn on - but I wanted to stick to the documentary sources we have (ie RACD rather than K&K etc) about badge fittings.

[grenadierguardsman]

Ok cheers Andy, im going back to the Crimea next year with a metal detector.

[2747andy]

Does anyone have any of the head-dress shown in the thread?

Andy

[fougasse1940]

I hope this doesn't confound this interesting thread unnecessarily, but wasn't this very Grenadier Guards badge also worn as a RA puggaree badge Ca. 1880-1902?
If not, what might be the differences between the GG grenade and the RA one? Lugs positioning? Amount of flames?

Rgds, Thomas.