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  #31  
Old 08-06-20, 08:42 PM
grumpy grumpy is offline
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I cannot see any GMGR badges as such: MG Guards, WG drummer, and are the small bronzed badges [or dull gilding] Household Cavalry?

If so, the sergeant is a corporal of horse.
Comments please?
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  #32  
Old 08-06-20, 09:58 PM
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I see Grumpy, why would they of got that wrong ? Photographers mistake, not knowing the rank structure perhaps ?
Andy
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  #33  
Old 08-06-20, 10:50 PM
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Comments please?
Judging by the grenades over his chevrons I would say he is/was a Grenadier Guardsman Sergeant, attached to the Household Brigade Machine Gun School or something complicated like that.

regards
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  #34  
Old 08-06-20, 10:53 PM
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The GMGR came into existence May 1918- the badge came later in November but it would seem it was not worn by Household Cavalry. My Grandfather had a bright Second Life Guards badge in photographs.
Daily Mail pictures (from Mrs Christina Broom's albums) show early war images of First Life Guards with dark badges. The RHG badges were dark/bronze colour. Regards, Paul. https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...chine+regiment
PS Anyone got pictures of Household Cavalry with machinegun collars, and what did First Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards elements use as shoulder titles?

Last edited by wardog; 09-06-20 at 06:38 PM.
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  #35  
Old 09-06-20, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manchesters View Post
Judging by the grenades over his chevrons I would say he is/was a Grenadier Guardsman Sergeant, attached to the Household Brigade Machine Gun School or something complicated like that.

regards
May not be looking at "sgt" draycott ........ highly likely he has Household cavalry cap [what else if not?], three chevrons, each with a small badge above. It might be a grenade, but the cap badge would suggest he is wearing Household crown regimental arm badges.
Can we imagine a GG sergeant being pressed to wear a donkey walloper cap badge?

Thanks to all for weighing in. This forum regularly shines a light into dark corners and debunks "received wisdom".
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  #36  
Old 09-06-20, 04:30 PM
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Found use of MG collars picture. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/...iaries/page/2/
Regards, Paul.
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  #37  
Old 09-06-20, 05:13 PM
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This cloth S/T was used.
Is it known if there was something similar for the 1 LG and RHG eliments, or did they use the badge used by the Foot Guards?
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  #38  
Old 09-06-20, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manchesters View Post
Judging by the grenades over his chevrons I would say he is/was a Grenadier Guardsman Sergeant, attached to the Household Brigade Machine Gun School or something complicated like that.

regards
His not a Grenadier though Simon.
Andy
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  #39  
Old 09-06-20, 06:30 PM
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Certainly looks like a pair of grandest over his chevrons to me??
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  #40  
Old 09-06-20, 06:36 PM
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Certainly looks like a pair of grandest over his chevrons to me??
I cant tell what's above the chevrons, not clear enough for me.
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  #41  
Old 09-06-20, 06:42 PM
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Why?


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Originally Posted by grumpy View Post

If so, the sergeant is a corporal of horse.
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  #42  
Old 09-06-20, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Why?
I base my thoughts on what I take to be a Household Cavalry cap badge, three chevrons and what I believe to be a small crown above. Crown is not a rank badge, but regimental as in most cavalry. I am sure that you know this.

The alternative is that he is a grenadier sergeant wearing a Household Cavalry cap badge.

Inherent probability is corporal of horse in my opinion.

I rather doubt that a C o H posted to/ attached to GMGR would change rank title.

Hope this is clear.
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  #43  
Old 10-06-20, 07:46 AM
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Yes, that is very clear, I simply wondered where you got that information from.
I think you were quite right to assume the cap badge, a badge like that being worn by a ranker is likely to be the Royal Horse Guards.
It is worth noting that members of the three regiments of Household Cavalry were normally transferred to the GMGR, they were not simply posted, attached or seconded and therefore were actually members of the new regiment, under the special AO of the 10th of May 1918 20/CAV370.
They did retain their original pay rates after being transferred, it is also worth noting that members of the three regiments could actually be attached to other units, in particular, the Household Battalion and have their rank title altered for the duration of any such attachment, that was quite common, particularly, in the case of someone with a trade, a cook or perhaps a pioneer Corporal of Horse, would become a pioneer sergeant for example.

In the case of Harold Draycott, a "smart and respectable looking lad" WO400 is really quite clear, he had been an Acting Corporal in the Royal Horse Guards, however, he was appointed Acting Lance Sergeant on the 1st of April 1918 at the Guards Depot and transferred into the GMGR upon the 10th of May.
He was a veteran of the BEF serving in France with the RHG and had been wounded on the 8th of November 1916, I had noted his wound stripe, he did, subsequently retransfer to the RHG after his service with the GMGR.

Interestingly, as an Acting Lance Sergeant, an act of Neglect of Duty as a squad instructor is noted, which occurred on the 24th of August 1918.



Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
I base my thoughts on what I take to be a Household Cavalry cap badge, three chevrons and what I believe to be a small crown above. Crown is not a rank badge, but regimental as in most cavalry. I am sure that you know this.

The alternative is that he is a grenadier sergeant wearing a Household Cavalry cap badge.

Inherent probability is corporal of horse in my opinion.

I rather doubt that a C o H posted to/ attached to GMGR would change rank title.

Hope this is clear.
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  #44  
Old 10-06-20, 04:07 PM
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I now notice Harold Draycott has MG collars. He has a noticeable look about him compared to his recruits. He has done his bit. Man standing far left of picture looks to have been overseas and possibly have a good conduct stripe, man sitting far right possibly 2. JNCO directly above Draycott. Regards, Paul.

Last edited by wardog; 10-06-20 at 04:59 PM.
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  #45  
Old 10-06-20, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Yes, that is very clear, I simply wondered where you got that information from.
I think you were quite right to assume the cap badge, a badge like that being worn by a ranker is likely to be the Royal Horse Guards.
It is worth noting that members of the three regiments of Household Cavalry were normally transferred to the GMGR, they were not simply posted, attached or seconded and therefore were actually members of the new regiment, under the special AO of the 10th of May 1918 20/CAV370.
They did retain their original pay rates after being transferred, it is also worth noting that members of the three regiments could actually be attached to other units, in particular, the Household Battalion and have their rank title altered for the duration of any such attachment, that was quite common, particularly, in the case of someone with a trade, a cook or perhaps a pioneer Corporal of Horse, would become a pioneer sergeant for example.

In the case of Harold Draycott, a "smart and respectable looking lad" WO400 is really quite clear, he had been an Acting Corporal in the Royal Horse Guards, however, he was appointed Acting Lance Sergeant on the 1st of April 1918 at the Guards Depot and transferred into the GMGR upon the 10th of May.
He was a veteran of the BEF serving in France with the RHG and had been wounded on the 8th of November 1916, I had noted his wound stripe, he did, subsequently retransfer to the RHG after his service with the GMGR.

Interestingly, as an Acting Lance Sergeant, an act of Neglect of Duty as a squad instructor is noted, which occurred on the 24th of August 1918.
Thank you very much indeed. The mystery of his rank [or appointment] badge remains ........ three chevrons, yes, but there is a badge above, on both arms. Certainly not a grenade unless he had qualified as a bomber instructor and incorrectly wore a grenade on both arms rather than the right.
If it is a crown he has invented something like [Acting] Lance Corporal-of- Horse some 50 years before the Household cavalry got round to it.
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