H.M.S. Perseus - eBay

[Cleeman]

Hi,

Can anyone explain to me why this cap tally sold for over £300. Am I missing something?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/bfl/viewbids/...&segname=11002
Andy

[Markus Bodeux]

With a length of 120cm it could be very old.
Dress regulations before 1893 show the tallies tied to the back with long hanging down ends. From 1893 until 1911 they were tied on the left side to " bow over the left ear", the forward end 3 inches long, the rear one 4 inches. Since 1911 both ends are 2 inches long.
Most unissued RN cap tallies, also those with the "dot" are shorter .... so may be two experts have recognized here an early victorian/edwardian ?

My 2 cents .....
Regards
Markus

[gary1666]

Not sure, it was a submarine that hit a mine in 1941 but other than that no idea. I've only ever sold one cap tally, about 7 months ago on online auction and it fetched £160, I nearly fell over, various ships had the name and nothing of note, to me anyway, seemed to have happened to them. I'd be interested to see if people more in the know answer, be interesting to know the readoning behind it......as I was waffling an answer came in, I guess then its going to be earlier than WW2

[Markus Bodeux]

There were several H.M.S. PERSEUS. over the decades.
I guess this one was for the cruiser H.M.S. PERSEUS, in service from 1897 until 1914, but who know´s ?
If it would be for the submarine sunk in 1941, it would be very rare and anything from the submarines is expensive.
Regarding the length, i would say it is older and was made for the cruiser.

Regards
Markus

[Nozzer]

Information from Page 104 of "Royal Navy Uniforms 1930-1945" by Martin J. Brayley

Cap Ribbons were 45 inches long until October 1940 when they were reduced to 37 inches (wartime economy measure).

There might be more information in this publication, but I haven't the time to look into it at present.

Andrew

[High Wood]

Originally Posted by Markus Bodeux

There were several H.M.S. PERSEUS. over the decades.
I guess this one was for the cruiser H.M.S. PERSEUS, in service from 1897 until 1914, but who knows?
If it would be for the submarine sunk in 1941, it would be very rare and anything from the submarines is expensive.
Regarding the length, i would say it is older and was made for the cruiser.

Regards
Markus

My understanding is that the crews of both ships and submarines did not wear cap tallies with the ship's name during WW2. The would have worn tallies with H.M.S. and H.M.S. Submarines respectively. This is not to say that cap tallies for the submarine H.M.S. Perseus were not issued or worn before the war.

[Cleeman]

Hi,

Thanks for the responses everyone. Even if it was the pre - WW1 H.M.S. Perseus (1897) would it be worth £300?

I also believed that Submarines were not issued with "named" Cap Tallies, is that correct?

I just guessed it was a couple of collector's eBay Sniper Tools getting carried away as the bids were in the last second or so!

Another quick question if I may, concerning WW2 cap tallies. For ships commissioned during WW2, that did not survive WW2 or were paid off immediately afterwards, were named tallies produced for the crew of these? As H.M.S. tallies were the order of the day, I would assume named tallies did not exist for a great deal of ships.

Many thanks,

Andy

[Nozzer]

Regarding the wearing of cap ribbons in WW2, follow the link in the post linked below.

Andrew

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...04&postcount=2

Admiralty Fleet Order (AFO) 4678 of September 1942 stated that even with stocks of named tallies being available, "HMS" tallies were now to be issued only and were to be worn ashore at all times. Named tallies could still be worn whilst at sea. From March 1943 only tallies with "HMS" were to be worn at all times.

[Cleeman]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for that information. Greatly appreciated.

Andy

[Nozzer]

Originally Posted by Cleeman

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for that information. Greatly appreciated.

Andy

Any time

It is a common misconception that cap ribbons worn from 1939 to 1945 had just H.M.S. on them. This is simply not true, regardless of what certain dealers would have you believe. In fact, just H.M.S. was worn for some time after the end of hostilities with the issue of named ribbons being somewhat slow. Martin J. Brayley mentions in his book that they where still in widespread use as late as 1948.

As to why the H.M.S. Perseus tally fetched such I high price, I am as puzzled as you

[Frank Kelley]

Old Victorian and Great War period examples are really quite rare to see for sale these days and will sell at the higher end, notwithstanding that certainly was a high price driven by two people that wanted it.

Originally Posted by Cleeman

Hi,

Can anyone explain to me why this cap tally sold for over £300. Am I missing something?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/bfl/viewbids/...&segname=11002
Andy

[High Wood]

If you had a medal group to an H.M.S. Perseus casualty, you would probably wait a long time for one to turn up and therefore bid high if another person wanted it.

I would love to own an original H.M.S. Natal tally and would probably bid high if one appeared on ebay.

[normang]

Originally Posted by High Wood

My understanding is that the crews of both ships and submarines did not wear cap tallies with the ship's name during WW2. The would have worn tallies with H.M.S. and H.M.S. Submarines respectively. This is not to say that cap tallies for the submarine H.M.S. Perseus were not issued or worn before the war.

HM Submarines during WW2 to my knowledge

[sailorbear]

Originally Posted by Nozzer

Any time

It is a common misconception that cap ribbons worn from 1939 to 1945 had just H.M.S. on them. This is simply not true, regardless of what certain dealers would have you believe. In fact, just H.M.S. was worn for some time after the end of hostilities with the issue of named ribbons being somewhat slow. Martin J. Brayley mentions in his book that they where still in widespread use as late as 1948.

As to why the H.M.S. Perseus tally fetched such I high price, I am as puzzled as you

HMS tallies were worn for at least 3 decades after that! HMS tallies were worn by National Servicemen, who were under new entry training at Victoria Barracks Southsea (not to be confused with Victory Barracks that is now HMS Nelson!) during the 1950's, they were also worn by naval ratings on Ships Taken Up from Trade (STUFT's) and by ratings under sentence in the Portsmouth Detention Quarters, until it closed and sailors were sent to MTC Colchester. In the 1990's when the Royal William Yard Victualling depot closed in Plymouth, the market was flooded with HMS tallies that had come out the yard in bundles of 10 in a cardboard tube date stamped 1978. Many of these are now sold as "original" WW2 tallies.

[Cleeman]

Some great information here.

Thank you everyone.

Andy