"T" titles

[Sonofacqms]

I have in my collection some infantry shoulder titles with the "T" removed, these have not been broken, but removed carefully, as I understand it these were worn on the greatcoats, but as usual there are other theories, that they were removed when the units went overseas etc.
Does any forum member have any other proof or theories?

[badjez]

The following is an extract from the Bn Orders of 6 Bn, The Lincs Regt:
"The letter ‘T’ referred to in paragraphs 527 and 548, Territorial Army
Regulations, will cease to be worn by officers and other ranks for whom it has hitherto been prescribed; battalion numerals will also be omitted from the shoulder title worn by other ranks of the Territorial Army Infantry battalions.
Authority:- W.O. Letter 54/Gen/8632 (M.G.O.7.b), dated 20/09/39. G.R.N.C. No.2/2989 (A)."

The easisets way to comply with this order was to sever the 'T' under local arrangements. I under stand this was done not only for security but because the units were absorbing non-TA personell, such as ex-Regular Reservists recalled to the colours, and they were not covered by TA Dress Regs. This is probably the same reason why the Gt War T/Y/>>>> became Y/>>> titles early in the war. The Gt War units were also absorbing battle casualties back onto strength who were not TA but Regulars.

Hope this helps, Steve.

[Sonofacqms]

Thanks Steve, always nice to have a bit more info on things, this was similar to what I have read or been told about in the past, fashions in the forces are always changing, they just can't leave anything alone!

[Peter Brydon]

This is a most interesting thread, two things occur to me.

Firstly Ray Westlake in his books on shoulder titles listed examples made for wear on the greatcoat by TF battalions, for example in the case of the Kings Liverpool Regt, he shows T/Kings,so it is not the "T" that has been removed (Miltary Metal Shoulder Titles Vol 1- Infantry 551 ).

Secondly there are examples of T.F. titles where the "T" has been altered to look like a number "1" and again I think it is Westlake who says that this was done when second and third line Territorial battalions were formed. The members of the original T.F. battalions wanted to show that they were the "original " territorials.

With respect to Badjez, I am not sure his reason for the "T" being dropped from yeomanry titles is correct( Westlake" Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles" )page 15 states " After the 1st WW the "T "was dropped from the titles,the new patterns being simply "Y" over the name of the unit........".

P.B.

[badjez]

PB,
Whilst I do not doubt the wisdom of more experienced collectors and authors, I have also carried out some research which supports my suposition. In the IWM are numerous sealed patterns relating to the cloth slip-on titles for Yeomanry Regiments. These were mostly introduced in 1916 and obsolete by 1922, and are almost entirely without the letter 'Y'. Metal patterns refer to the 'T' being removed later. If cloth badges were introduced in 1916 perhaps the perceived wisdom relating to metal badges may also be challenged.

Additionally, the restriction upon the use of Battle Honours on cap badges by TF units during WW1 was partly as a result of the dilution of the TF man by returning casualties from other units and non-TF volunteers and conscripts.

Perhaps this evidence was not available to earlier collectors when their works were written.

Regards, Steve.

[Sonofacqms]

I think all that has been said is probably true, there seems to be a great deal of "Licence" with titles, I have a T/6/SUFFOLK where the "T" has been converted into a "1" and an additional separate plain "T" (the type worn on a TF officers collar) worn above, with a long brass split pin holding them together.
These were the Suffolk cyclists and as stated before, the conversion was made when the 2/6th was formed.
There are also photos of shoulder titles being worn as collar badges, quite why this happened has never been documented as far as I know.
I recently bought a "CAMBRIDGE" title where the "T" had been roughly taken off, which I think were worn by the band. These seemingly wanton acts of badge vandalism generally have a reason, the results rather depending on the skill of the practitioner.

[Peter Brydon]

There was a reference earlier to cloth yeomanry slip on titles being obsolete by 1922 and being mostly with out the "Y" on them.

The attached photo is from The Formation Sign of Jan-Mar 2006 and if they were made obsolete earlier then it appears that Yeomanry cloth slip on titles must have been reintroduced in the 1940`s

P.B.

[badjez]

The IWM holds the Sealed Patterns for the cloth 'slip-on' shoulder titles I referred to. I have only checked out the references not the actual items yet. The reference records everything written on the sealed pattern cards. Those I've looked through are all anotated 'Obsolete' on 07/10/19.

The Sealed Patterns that I looked for in metal were mostly Eastern Command T/Y... and some Y/... titles. They are all declared obsolete on 05/04/22 by 9/Arty/7233(JA2) and again on 08/06/22 by ACD/441/1921. (checking of these WO Letters has proved impossible so far). However this may be accounted for by their transfer to the RFA (Bed, Herts, Essex, Loyal Suffolk Hussars etc). Northants Yeo titles also became obsolete but they were transferred to the RAC. The Lincs Yeo had been earmarked for reformation in the RFA but was disbanded instead.

I am unaware of any of these units adopting cloth titles during WW2.
Hope this helps. Steve.