An Old Bailey badge?

Originally Posted by Bantam

Hi Peter,
Despite trying to identify prison badges with the City of London Arms on I'm afraid I've had little success.It is because the Newgate badge was the only one that had its usage stated by the MoL and James's badge also court related I was suggesting that may have been used in the same way ?
Given that it is still feasible that there are people still alive who could have worn the badge (if worn) I am surprised no one can shed no light on its purpose.
I'm afraid early prison badges are somewhat of an enigma.
I look forward to your thoughts/comments.
Hwyl
Bantam

Bantam,

Thanks for clearing that up, mate.

Since my last post I have sent queries to a number of different bodies within the City (no replies as yet), but as I am sure you will be aware, this kind of research can frequently bring back disappointing results, if any.

In the meantime, I will do my best to remain optimistic .

What an interesting thread though, and great to have been able to see James' badge.

Cheers for now,

Peter.

Gentlemen,

Following on from my hunch that James' badge was reminiscent of the 6th Bn RF collars, one of the queries I sent out was to the Royal Fusiliers Museum, in which I attached a copy of James' image.

Here (paraphrased) is the reply I received today from the museum's Chief Clerk, Mr. J Kelleher:


'Hello

The collar badge you illustrate is of the 6th (later 7th) Bn Royal Fusiliers (The Royal London Militia)

This unit was unique insomuch that they wore double collar badges of the kind you have

Yours... '

I am still waiting on replies to the other emails I have sent out, and will of course post them, as and when they arrive.

Regards to all,

Peter.

[Jamesb853]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for all the information, which is most interesting. Here is what I have managed to find out about the Old Bailey, which might help in identification.

Although a court has existed on the site for centuries, it was only formally constituted as the Central Criminal Court by statute in 1834. Newgate ceased to be used as a prison in 1877 and was demolished in 1902 to make way for the present court building.

From my own visits to the Bailey as a lawyer's clerk in the 1970's I remember that in addition to police officers, there was a body of uniformed attendants who wore a uniform very similar to the CoL Police but with red cuffs and epaulettes, who were colloquially known as "redbands". They wore twin enamel badges of the City on their collars (an example is illustrated in the attachment), and were under the supervision of the Keeper of the Court, a CoL official responsible for the upkeep of the building. Apparently his office was "descended from the Governor of Newgate" according to an old guide book. I was never able to find out exactly what the "redbands" actually did, apart from lurk around the courts and the pubic galleries.

From the above it would seem that my badge cannot relate to Newgate since, having a Kings Crown, it post-dates the closure of that prison. All the other CoL prisons had been taken over by the Home Office in 1878, so it cannot relate to them either. So does it relate to the Keeper or the "redbands"?

Hope this is of some help.

James

Originally Posted by Jamesb853

Gentlemen,

Thank you for all the information, which is most interesting. Here is what I have managed to find out about the Old Bailey, which might help in identification.

Although a court has existed on the site for centuries, it was only formally constituted as the Central Criminal Court by statute in 1834. Newgate ceased to be used as a prison in 1877 and was demolished in 1902 to make way for the present court building.

From my own visits to the Bailey as a lawyer's clerk in the 1970's I remember that in addition to police officers, there was a body of uniformed attendants who wore a uniform very similar to the CoL Police but with red cuffs and epaulettes, who were colloquially known as "redbands". They wore twin enamel badges of the City on their collars (an example is illustrated in the attachment), and were under the supervision of the Keeper of the Court, a CoL official responsible for the upkeep of the building. Apparently his office was "descended from the Governor of Newgate" according to an old guide book. I was never able to find out exactly what the "redbands" actually did, apart from lurk around the courts and the pubic galleries.

From the above it would seem that my badge cannot relate to Newgate since, having a Kings Crown, it post-dates the closure of that prison. All the other CoL prisons had been taken over by the Home Office in 1878, so it cannot relate to them either. So does it relate to the Keeper or the "redbands"?

Hope this is of some help.

James

James,

The CoL badge in your last post looks remarkably similar (if not identcal) to the collar badges worn during the early C20th, by City of London Police Reserve Senior Officers.

Here we go again!

Cheers,

PJ

[Jamesb853]

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much for all your information and suggestions. I have done some further research and would like to add the following information, which I hope might help with identification:

The Central Criminal Court (the Old Bailey) was administered by the CoL until 1972 when it became part of the national Crown Court network administered by central government, but the building remained CoL property. Newgate Prison closed in 1877 and was demolished in 1902 to make way for the present court building.

I also remember that when I was a solicitors clerk in the 1970's and used to visit the Bailey they had some staff who wore a uniform very similar to the CoL Police but with red cuffs and epaulettes, with twin enamel City CoA badges on the collar.

These characters were colloquially known as "redbands" but I don't know what their official title was; neither did I ever find out what they actually did, apart from lurk in the corridors and pubic galleries. They were under the supervision of the Keeper of the Court who was a CoL official, responsible for the upkeep of the building. Court security, production of court papers, antecedants, etc was joint between the City and Met Police, whilst the Dock Officers were always HM Prison Service, as was the case at all Crown Courts.

Therefore it seems that my badge cannot be related directly to Newgate as the prison had closed before the KC came into being. Is this badge therefore connected with the "redbands"?

As has been commented upon, the subject of CoL insignia really is something of a minefield, and the City itself seems to be quite secretive about it.

I have also got a QC version of the badge, which I had completely forgotten about until I found it today hidden at the back of a drawer!! Attached is a scan of it.

I hope this is of help.

James

Originally Posted by Jamesb853

I have also got a QC version of the badge, which I had completely forgotten about until I found it today hidden at the back of a drawer!! Attached is a scan of it.

I hope this is of help.

James

Now you are just trying to cause trouble! .

At long last... reply received today from the London Metropolitan Archives (paraphrased):

'On examining the photograph you attached with your enquiry, I don't
believe I can add anything that might contradict your assumption
regarding the dating and possible provenance of the 'collar badge'
unless it was for the City of London Police Force. However we have few
artefacts of this type, as we mainly hold documents.

Yours Sincerely

Amy Proctor
Senior Information Officer (Enquiries)'

Regards,

Peter

[Bantam]

Hi Peter,
Many thanks for all your efforts in trying to discover identity of James's badge.Well done.
Regards
Bantam.
Nodolig Llawen Pawb/Merry Christmas everyone.

[HMPbadges]

Great thread gents, I'm enjoying reading this. Can I suggest that this may be a Holloway Prison/Court/badge/Seal - early Corporation of London etc. And is there any way you can post the MoL badge on here or send a link to it?

Originally Posted by HMPbadges

Great thread gents, I'm enjoying reading this. Can I suggest that this may be a Holloway Prison/Court/badge/Seal - early Corporation of London etc. And is there any way you can post the MoL badge on here or send a link to it?

HMPB,

The link to the MoL badge is within post #14, above.

Regards,

Peter.

[HMPbadges]

So sorry, I can't find it. Can you post it here?

HMPB,

HERE

Regards,

Peter.

[HMPbadges]

Great stuff, thanks Pete

Reply received on from the Museum of London:


Dear Peter,

Firstly please accept my apologies for the delay in responding to your original message. I have consulted various people but unfortunately drawn a total blank. From the picture and description I would say this is definitely a cap badge worn by someone connected to the City – unfortunately the lack of any other distinguishing features makes it very difficult to connect it to any organization. If I hear anything else I will let you know and I’m sorry I cannot be more helpful.

Best regards,

Jim Gledhill

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers,

Peter.

[Bantam]

Hi Peter,
Thank you for posting and all your efforts in trying to discover the identity of the badge.
Hwyl
Bantam