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  #31  
Old 17-07-14, 12:28 PM
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Jibba Jabba Jibba Jabba is offline
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Thank you for the page reference Mooke. In my opinion I would stick to the regimental sources rather than these newer books, offering a whole new perspective with cherry picked accounts to substantiate new claims.

The quote concerning 15 rounds a minute seems in 'my opinion' to be stating the obvious. A regular soldier was well aware of how much ammunition he was carrying and every sergeant aware of how much ammunition was on a limber. Those transport men, particularly the NCOs of the 1st Battalion were seasoned veterans. They didn't get it wrong, like the territorials in 1915

Although, fighting a Dervish force is a bit different to fighting the Germans the 1st Lincolns actually felt guilty about how many Dervish they had killed so magnificent was their rifle fire. Had standards really dropped between that time and 1914? Also, if these colonial wars were such a push over as some authors claim, why is it when the 1st Lincolns were paired with the Sudanese infantry, the Sudanese could not hold the line with their rifle fire? I think that's testimony to the 1st Battalions skill at arms.

Having said, some severe mistakes were made by the 2nd Battalion in South Africa. One leadership balls up at Zillkets Nek meant that the regiment on the most part was resigned to guard duty and small actions. This in my opinion was no reflection on the regulars ability with a rifle.

If you would like a copy of the war diary or an account of man who was actually at Mons please let me know.

Any author can write what they like about the regulars of 1914 but in my opinion, they did their job, which was to stop the German advance against a far larger army. There really was no choice but to retreat from Mons, but not all the 1st Lincolns did retreat, the band and wounded stayed behind to be captured by the Germans. They were humiliated by the Germans and had the French snub them when they were low on rations.

The VTC Badge.........

One has to remember that the VTC was spread all over the county. They were was a Grimsby/Cleethorpes Company, one in Louth etc etc.

It is possible one company may of worn a bronzed badge but we have yet to find any photographic evidence to support this. There are photographic cards of the VTC. I have seen them for Grimsby. You'll need a microscope to view this one of a church parade......

http://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/pi...ctures.html#11

One day a card may be discovered, but until that day nothing is concrete. A few years ago a card was found on ebay of a soldier wearing a slip on shoulder title. There is also proof broken cap badge were worn minus the 'Lincolnshire' base scroll. Until something is found on the VTC front I will remain sceptical.
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  #32  
Old 18-07-14, 05:08 AM
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Thanks for the additional discussion on the 1st Lincolns. I am quite interested as my maternal grandfather and his brother both DoW in late 1914 and early 1915 with 1st and 2nd Battalions of the Leicestershire Regiment and so have been tracing their movements and actions. The general conditions of the Mons/Marne campaign are of key interest. Will PM for copy of first hand account thanks.

All the best, Dean.
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  #33  
Old 19-07-14, 08:51 AM
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Dean,

I have located some interesting information for you.

The accounts I have are brief. One is a hand written by the vet himself, the other is a published letter to his mother. I have another account of rifle training of the Lincolns. A casualty roll for the action we discussed.....when you see the length of that list I certainly question the 1st merely being a rear guard force! The Medal News also published an article in 1986 regarding the 1st Lincolns ability with a rifle in that action having interviewed two regulars who were there. I would be more than happy to supply you with all of this information free of charge. PM me your email address.

It would appear that 15 rounds a minute is a low estimate......that was the minimum requirement and you wouldn't be allowed to leave the range until you achieved it. 25 rounds a minute for the best soldiers. On the range 6 days a week apparently, with accurate shooting at 600 yards! That information is from a vet who was actually there.

I have no idea why Hastings is making a point of questioning it? he did get one thing right though, the German artillery fire was horrendous at Mons, particularly on Mons itself. Apparently buildings were falling over around the Lincolns as they moved through Mons. I can hardly blame them for not wanting to stay in one place. Anyway, you read that letter and make up your own mind.
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Last edited by Jibba Jabba; 19-07-14 at 09:00 AM.
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  #34  
Old 19-07-14, 09:47 PM
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Thanks very much for this extra information,

I know the 1st Lincs casualty roll for 23/24th August was around 130 killed and wounded with many of the wounded being captured. The 4th Middlesex had casualties of around 400 I think defending the canal with the Royal Fusiliers. I think that in the retreat from Mons when the Germans broke off their main advance the Lincs were the rear battalion of the Brigade hence rear guard action. I am away but have a look at my books when home.

I will send a PM, many thanks Dean.
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  #35  
Old 19-04-15, 06:59 PM
dfsvol dfsvol is offline
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Default Swan Neck Blackened Lincolnshire

I'm a total novice so will value your opinions of this badge. It is bimetal but appears to be blackened either by intent or accidental. Does it have much value?
Regards
Peter
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  #36  
Old 20-04-15, 01:46 AM
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Hi Peter,

Your badge certainly looks to be Swan-necked. As to the blackening this thread has pretty clearly discounted these as VTC badges from a lack of photographic evidence. There were earlier bronzed badges that were lugged that gave way to OSD Star pattern badges. I think the blackening is accidental. Cheers Dean.
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