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  #16  
Old 13-07-14, 11:39 AM
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Cheers Dean, here's a slightly clearer scan of it (although the colours are admittedly still a bit off).

Kevin
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File Type: jpg Lincolns cap badge (1) (front) (2).jpg (59.0 KB, 43 views)
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  #17  
Old 14-07-14, 12:14 PM
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Thanks Kevin.

A Black Swan - an Australian special ! Yes this is absolutely a WW1 pattern badge. The colour and condition just add to it. Although Max Hastings in his new book on the year that was 1914 dispels many of the Mons/Marne campaign myths the rate of fire of the 1st Batt Lincolnshire regiment was akin to machine gun fire. Although sadly them leaving their trenches when under artillery fire was not a myth. A nice badge. Collectors will take more notice in time of dates badges just like War Raised Cavalry and Economy Issue badges.

Cheers Dean.

Last edited by mooke07; 16-07-14 at 10:37 AM.
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  #18  
Old 15-07-14, 12:02 PM
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Dean/Kevin,

Is the black badge said to have been worn by the VTC like the one shown in Kevin's album?

If so it looks like a bronzed/blackened Bi metal badge?

Paul
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  #19  
Old 15-07-14, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJT View Post
Dean/Kevin,

Is the black badge said to have been worn by the VTC like the one shown in Kevin's album?

If so it looks like a bronzed/blackened Bi metal badge?

Paul
Hello Paul,

I can't comment on the VTC side of things, I'm afraid, but the 'swan neck' badge I posted is definitely bi-metal under the bronzing (& I'd say the colour was bronze rather than black, at least now - whether it started out like that, who knows?).

I bought another Lincolns badge a short while ago that also shows signs of having been re-coloured (again a brown/bronze sort of shade, although it's worn off a bit more than the first one), as per the attachment.


Kevin
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File Type: jpg Lincolns cap badge (5) (front) (2).jpg (68.6 KB, 34 views)
File Type: jpg Lincolns cap badge (5) (rear) (2).jpg (33.5 KB, 21 views)
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  #20  
Old 16-07-14, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by PJT View Post
Jibba Jabba,

Presumably this is Sandall's book?

I'm looking for an other ranks pattern badge worn on the sleeve...can you advise the page number or officers name because I can't see it.

Presumably the shape is the same as the O/R badge but is cast silver/gilt?

Paul
Yes, Sandalls.

The page to the right of page 50. Captain H. W. Nicholson.

The badge is clearly dark in colour, but you view that and make up your own mind.
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  #21  
Old 16-07-14, 10:44 AM
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Captain Nicholson is wearing the bronze pattern Sphinx cap badge shown in my Lincolnshire album http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=51189. Now shown below. This is also shown being worn by a number of Officers in a group shot of the 5th Bn in Dunstable in 1914 alongside a number wearing star pattern Lincolnshire Regiment Officers cap badges. Nicholson in one of them and he was Lt in the 1914 photo. These bronze badges were worn from 1898 through to at least 1914. They are die cast Sphinx with a flat backed Lincolnshire scroll, lugged and non-smiling, non- Art Deco faced without the swan neck, all in light-coloured bronze metal. It is my view that Swan Neck badges are WW1 variants and are not seen on post-1898 pattern Sphinx badges that were lugged and short and long slidered. swan neck badges are only wth sliders also in my experience.

This is not a blackened badge, regards Dean.
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File Type: jpg lin.15.f.jpg (51.6 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg lin.15.r.jpg (53.7 KB, 9 views)

Last edited by mooke07; 17-07-14 at 08:53 AM.
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  #22  
Old 16-07-14, 12:19 PM
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Lincolnshire born and bred and a badge collector since the early 1970's and I never knew that a bronzed/blackened Lincolns existed!

Grateful to Dean for starting this thread and to Kevin for the photo in the album.

First thing I'll be doing when I get home at the weekend is to go through that box of Lincolns badges that I've picked up over the years (with the intention of framing them one day). In there is what I thought was just a heavily corroded brownish BM Lincolns...

Fingers crossed.

Cheers
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  #23  
Old 16-07-14, 12:35 PM
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The blackened ones shown look like similiar coloured badges that have turned thta colour because they have been buried for a period of time. The bimetals can be seen wear cleaning has removed the discolouration from the highpoints but the staining remains below. As you say 'heavily coroded brownish'. I would avoid paying a premium for such an item without further proof that such a thing existed.



These should not be confused with Officers bronzed badges.
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  #24  
Old 16-07-14, 01:05 PM
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The blackened ones shown look like similiar coloured badges that have turned thta colour because they have been buried for a period of time. The bimetals can be seen wear cleaning has removed the discolouration from the highpoints but the staining remains below. As you say 'heavily coroded brownish'. I would avoid paying a premium for such an item without further proof that such a thing existed.

These should not be confused with Officers bronzed badges.
Once again, I agree with Alan.

Of the thousands of recruits that passed through the 3rd Battalion Lincolnshire Volunteer Regiment during the Great War not one postcard I have seen in in decades of sifting through them in Grimsby has shown a dull/blackened/bronzed badge worn by an OR.

The example I have quoted is the only photograph proof of a standard sphinx being worn that is not polished. No photographic proof has yet to surface of any ORs wearing anything like it.

I have heard of accounts of some regiments applying tar to badges to discolour them for the purposes of trench warfare, but I've not heard as much as much as even 'hear say' from a badge dealer that the Lincolns did this, let alone a veterans account.

Mooke, I do not care as to who told you that the rocking horse pattern was circa WW1 what I would like to know is what is the evidence that person used to reach this conclusion? I've seen thousands of postcards to the regiment and its almost impossible to identify cap badge variations. Even if one card were encountered with the rocking horse pattern in wear, what is to say this is not a badge drawn from stores, manufactured pre war? The 4th battalion were still wearing slade wallis equipment in the late 1930's! I hope you understand my point.
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Last edited by Jibba Jabba; 16-07-14 at 01:14 PM.
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  #25  
Old 16-07-14, 01:23 PM
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I tend to agree that the badge pictured in#19 looks more tarnished than bronzed, probably as a result of a spell in the soil or possibly smoky/damp conditions as the rear looks fine.

Andy
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  #26  
Old 16-07-14, 01:41 PM
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Agree on earth aged look of #19 Andy.

Go easy Jibba Jabba. My original post had one line that an experienced former Royal Lincolnshire Regiment soldier and collector did indicate that he was aware of a blackened badge in this Swan Neck pattern. I will try and get him on the phone tmrw night from Australia and see what supporting evidence he has. I may have mis-understood him.

There is a very different story on the bronzed Sphinx badge for Officers. More research is warranted on the dates but photos support it clearly.

Apologies if the two themes have got twisted here. That was not my intention.

But then I am not a badge guru !

Regards Dean
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  #27  
Old 16-07-14, 04:20 PM
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As someone who digs stuff up for a living, I must admit I'm somewhat sceptical that such uniform discolouration of a bi-metallic object can occur simply from being buried, especially with no evidence of the blue/green corrosion product that occurs with all copper-rich metals subjected to damp conditions (as most earth is). I will concede, however, that I haven't seen enough 'buried' badges to make an objective assessment, & would be particularly interested in seeing single metal (both w/m & g/m) buried badges to see if there's any variance in the way the different types of metal tarnish & corrode.

With the badge in post #19, I'm particularly unconvinced of the 'earth' argument, as (as Andy says) the rear of the badge & particularly the slider are not subject the the same discolouration - the back IS dirty & seems to be covered with polish overspill, but if you rub it with a moist finger, it comes off, revealing the metal beneath; on the front, no matter how hard you rub, the brown does not come off (although I dare say it will polish off).

The first badge I posted (posts #14 & #16), again is very dirty & neglected, but the deep brown coating on the front is very uniform in thickness (or thin-ness, in fact), & most critically there doesn't seem to be any obscuration or degradation of the surface detailing - e.g., the seeding on the tablet, scroll & segmented edging of the 'hood' - as I would expect to see if it had been buried for even a short length of time. Also, if you look at the edges of the spots where the brown has flaked off, you can see it IS a coating of some sort, not simply tarnishing of the metal.

The big question of course, is why the badge was coated in the first place, & to that I have no answer at all. Likewise, whether it was done 100 years ago or only 20, is impossible to determine (at least with the tools I have to hand). I will note, however, that I have a couple of other badges that show evidence of some sort of red-brown lacquer being applied to their fronts (RAF & RASC, as attached), so someone's been slathering brown stuff on badges for some reason or other


I'd like it make it clear that in saying all of this, I'm not trying to push a particular position or imply provenance or attribution, & I'm certainly not trying to inflate the value of any particular item (to be honest, I couldn't care less about that - these are all badges obtained VERY cheaply for my own enjoyment & in memory of my Dad or other family members), it's of purely academic interest to me now.

Finally, by way of comparison, I've attached a couple of images of copper-alloy items that definitely HAVE been buried, & while one was in ground for considerably longer than the other (c. 1,900 years for the brooch compared to 100-200 years for the token), you'll note that both exhibit very similar patterns of corrosion & concretion, both of which are absent from the badges under discussion.


Kevin
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File Type: jpg RAF cap badge.jpg (44.7 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg RASC cap badge.jpg (47.1 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Nuremburg-type jeton.jpg (61.8 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg Roman fibula brooch.jpg (38.5 KB, 11 views)
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  #28  
Old 16-07-14, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooke07 View Post
Thanks Kevin.

A Black Swan - an Australian special ! Yes this is absolutely a WW1 pattern badge. The colour and condition just add to it. Although Max Hastings in his new book on the year that was 1914 dispels many of the Mons/Marne campaign myths the rate of fire of the 1st Batt Lincolnshire regiment was akin to machine gun fire. Although sadly them leaving their trenches when under artillery fire was not a myth. A nice badge. Collectors will take more notice in time of dates badges just like War Raised Cavalry and Economy Issue badges.

Cheers Dean.
Not at all related to this topic, but seeing as you mentioned it here regardless.....

I have a copy of Max Hastings Catastrophe - Europe Goes to War 1914. I am really struggling to find any reference to the Lincolnshire's in it? To what page are you referring?

The rapid fire being mistaken for machine gun fire is referenced in the history of the 24th Brandenburg Regiment, supposedly. See page 14 of Simpsons. This was at Frameries.

Are you sure you mean Max Hastings book? No a single reference source to the Lincoln's is mentioned in the bibliography either?
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Last edited by Jibba Jabba; 16-07-14 at 05:56 PM.
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  #29  
Old 17-07-14, 08:02 AM
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HI Jibba Jabba,

Didn't mean to get off topic either but it does relate to WW1 Lincolnshire Regiment indeed.

Yes indeed the account in Simpsons History of the Lincolnshire Regiment has the 24th (Brandenburg) Regiment as attributing to the rapid fire of the defending Lincolnshire Regiment to machine gun fire. The Lincolns and South lancs gave a good account of themselves against no less than a Division of German troops

Max Hastings on page 209 writes 'although too much has been made of the rifleman's notional fifteen-rounds-a-minute capability. Any unit which sustained such a rate of fire would speedily have exhausted its ammunition.' I was noting this as an observation generally and not specifically to the 1st Lincolns and sorry if you thought I was. I think to be fair that the Lincolns on the 23rd August would have maintained a maximum rate of fire to beat off the initial German advance. They may have not been able to have sustained this with their ammunition supplies as they were engaged as a rearguard like the South Lancs for 3-4 hours. However, clearly the rate of well-aimed fire was devastating to the Germans.

All the best and a Swan-Necked Lincolnshire Regiment badge is still special if it only serves to remind us of the sacrifice of the British Army in 1914 in particular.

Dean
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  #30  
Old 17-07-14, 10:00 AM
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Default Blackened Swan-Necked Lincolnshire Regiment badge

Hi all,

I have spoken to my Lincolnshire Regiment collector friend. He has a slidered Swan-Necked Sphinx pattern Lincolnshire Regiment cap badge that is blackened to the front and rear. I will try and get a picture of it. Another collector in Grantham (my place of birth actually) has one as well and he described it to my friend as a VTC badge to the Lincolnshire Regiment. My friend has never seen it in any books or postcards being worn. The lack of supporting photographic evidence for it being VTC or other variant Lincolnshire badge probably draws a line under that.

It was a line of interest and sorry if I caused a rumble, cheers Dean.
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