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  #1  
Old 07-04-14, 05:14 PM
John Mulcahy's Avatar
John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
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Default Fusilier Officers - vertical collar badges for undress

Folks

I am looking for some help and education on the subject of the collar badges worn by officers of fusilier regiments in undress from 1900 - 1922.

My question is prompted by the illustration in "Crown & Company 1911 - 1922, 2nd Battalion Royal Dublin Fusiliers" of the upright grenade collar badges shown as no. 7 in the image below on the left. It is captioned as "Blue Undress - Collar Grenades, they appear to be silver & gilt. I have a similar pair, with different flame pattern, which I also attach. The book dates from 1923 and I assume the information that vertical collar badges were worn in undress is correct.

However it is my understanding that both the Blue Frock Coat and the Blue (or Scarlet for that matter) Patrol Jacket had upright collars, is it true that fusilier officers would have worn vertical grenades on such a collar? I have only found images of horizontal grenades in some quick searching.

I have a couple of questions.

Were the collars of Blue undress stand-up or were they modified to a roll collar or what is today called a notched collar such as on the service jacket image attached. If so does anyone have a date for the change?

Does anyone have evidence of vertical grenades being worn by fusilier officers in undress with stand up collars?

What I am trying to do is see if the vertical RMF collars , shown on the right, were ever worn in undress. They were certainly worn on service dress extensively but I can find no sign of them, yet , used on undress.

thanks in advance for helping me clear this up.

John
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RDF 001.jpg (59.2 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpg Officers collars.jpg (69.5 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg Lt Col Bent 001cropped .jpg (86.2 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg RMF Officers undress and service dress collar badges.jpg (41.8 KB, 31 views)
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  #2  
Old 07-04-14, 05:24 PM
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Hello John,

I hope you are all well ???

As much as I would like to, I'm afraid I cannot help, in fact, I lost it when you said " Folks " ??? I have only replied to say hello ???

Dave.
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Old 07-04-14, 05:47 PM
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Graham Stewart Graham Stewart is offline
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You need to get hold of a copy of "Dress Regulations", which in most cases covers all manner of dress and the badges to be worn with them by officers. These were updated as badges and dress changed.
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Old 07-04-14, 06:30 PM
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John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Stewart View Post
You need to get hold of a copy of "Dress Regulations", which in most cases covers all manner of dress and the badges to be worn with them by officers. These were updated as badges and dress changed.
Graham,

I guess I should have narrowed my question to post 1911 - 1922.

For the time period 1900 - 1922 I have copies of the 1900, 1904 & 1911 DRs and can see stand-up collars for undress Frock Coat and the patrol jacket and although details are given for collar badges on tunics, mess dress and service dress in the appropriate tables only the most general data is given in the paragraphs concerned for the Blue Patrol Jacket.

So I guess what I am looking for is did the Blue Patrol Jacket change to a turn down collar after this date or was it common to see those vertical grenades on the stand up collar?

Photographic evidence is not helping me with the Munsters or Dublins thus far as I find images of officers in undress uniforms hard to track down after the 1911 date, up till then I see horizontal grenades in use on the stand up collars. The embroidered tunic collar badges on the frock coat as indicated in the 1904 DR para 774 and horizontal metal badges on the Frock.

What is your experience with The Northumberland Fusiliers?

John
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Old 08-04-14, 02:02 PM
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Scarlet Patrol.jpgOfficers & Senior NCOs 4th BN, 1904 - Copy (2).jpgOfficers 3rd V.B.,N.F. - pre-1908.jpgS.P.1.jpg
Very much like yourself, although the Northumberlands appear to have adopted vertical bronze collars for the earlier patterns of SD with stand-up collar and trying to find photo's of them wearing 'blue' patrols post-WWI is some thing I have yet to succeed at.

I have photo's of the double breasted blue 'frock' coat - horizontal collars; photo's of the pre-1902 scarlet patrol, with white facings - horizontal collars and even a post-1902 scarlet patrol, gosling green facings in my collection and photo's - horizontal collars, but the 'blue' patrol jacket evades me.

Found a couple of prints of officers of the N.F. wearing 'blue' patrols in 1900 and no collar badges are being worn.

Last edited by Graham Stewart; 08-04-14 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 10-04-14, 01:33 PM
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Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mulcahy View Post
Graham,

I guess I should have narrowed my question to post 1911 - 1922.

For the time period 1900 - 1922 I have copies of the 1900, 1904 & 1911 DRs and can see stand-up collars for undress Frock Coat and the patrol jacket and although details are given for collar badges on tunics, mess dress and service dress in the appropriate tables only the most general data is given in the paragraphs concerned for the Blue Patrol Jacket.

So I guess what I am looking for is did the Blue Patrol Jacket change to a turn down collar after this date or was it common to see those vertical grenades on the stand up collar?

Photographic evidence is not helping me with the Munsters or Dublins thus far as I find images of officers in undress uniforms hard to track down after the 1911 date, up till then I see horizontal grenades in use on the stand up collars. The embroidered tunic collar badges on the frock coat as indicated in the 1904 DR para 774 and horizontal metal badges on the Frock.

What is your experience with The Northumberland Fusiliers?

John
John, horizontal collar grenades were worn with patrol, frock and tunic (standing) collars. Vertical badges were worn with the post 1902 service (stepped) and mess dress (roll) collars, and a variation to the blue patrol frock with open collar.

After 1902 badges could be obtained with a rotating central (regimental) 'device' for some (possibly all) fusilier regiments so that an officer did not need to possess so many versions. This was part of an overall effort to try and reduce the cost of an officer's kitting out. How popular the rotating type were I do not know. For some regiments they are mentioned in dress regulations, but not all seem to have mentioned them, although that need not mean that they did not exist. Those who did not want a rotating type would simply have had to purchase both, horizontal (original) and vertical (new) versions.

Both badges were produced in bullion and metal and, after 1902, the horizontal type was really required only for the frock coat and blue patrol frock in terms of undress, as the red version of the patrol frock was abolished, although it could apparently continue to be worn at overseas stations.

The open rever (stepped) collar version of blue patrols was introduced in 1913 and was in effect a blue version of the SD jacket. The skirts were 3 inches longer, proportionate to height, and the lower pockets were bellowed. Vertical collar badges were worn with this dress. In theory it was optional as to which type of blue patrols an officer purchased, but in reality I imagine that each regiment decided what to adopt. This newer version was worn with a white shirt and black silk (ribbed) tie.

It does appear that quite a number of regiments (but not necessarily the fusiliers) did not wear collar badges with the upright (aka Prussian) collar version of blue patrols.
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File Type: jpg $(KGrHqN,!jcFJi3SMotlBSfBf4fmIw~~60_58.JPG (15.1 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg vert.JPG (16.0 KB, 6 views)

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 14-04-14 at 10:24 AM.
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