Welsh Guards - Flat Back

[Jibba Jabba]

Does anyone know the significance of the Welsh Guards solid back?

I thought this was a broken shoulder title, but the titles do not have two lugs on the leek.

Thank you for looking.

[Bantam]

Hi Jibba Jabba,
I think it is an early version other ranks hat badge.The two lugs is generaly found on the Officers version in Gilt.
As you probably know the Welsh Guards were formed in 1915.
Regards
Bantam

[Jibba Jabba]

Thanks for the reply and information Bantham. I keep on looking for solid backs but all I ever seam to find is examples with reverse die impressions. I`m also pretty sure the repros dont have the flat back.

[Bantam]

Hi Jibba Jabba,
I would agree with you there doesn't appear to be repros with flat backs.In the case of your Welsh Guards Leek it as all the appearance that you would expect of a genuine badge.Nice patina,signs of wear in the right places and a robustness and thats with just looking at it.Nice one.
Regards
Bantam

[KLR]

A WO order of April 1916 required 5,000 Welsh Guards badges, (pattern 8397/1915) for R&F (rank and file) in GM and stated for "Badges Forage Cap; with vertical shank".

[Bantam]

KLR,
Superb bit of info.
Bantam

[Jibba Jabba]

Thank you for posting that information KLR. Now we all understand the significance of the flat backs.

[Alan O]

I think that the vertical shank KLR refers to is a slider so it is not an early version of the WG cap badge but something else.

Alan

[KLR]

yes. VS is War Office speak for what we now call a slider (actually they used the term VS into the 1960s !). They use the term 'loops' for what many call lugs today. Regarding metals they always used GM, and until at least the 2nd WW they used the abbreviation GS (German silver) for WM

[Bantam]

I stand by original statement
Bantam

[KLR]

I don't know anything really about WG badges (and I privately thought a slider inappropriate for this one - don't know if they were used)
I would need to look up the original designation in the ACD records to see what fixing it had, the 1916 list is all I have with me at the moment. Its possible that a) it was originally given loops then changed to a slider (though the pattern is still 1915), or b) that the heading at the top of the order list "with vertical shanks" was not amended - I mean that there are one or two badges in the list for which it specifies loops as an exception to the general heading - and they left this one out. Again, I have to say, unlikely.
I should add that my own WG badge has loops, but I'm not sure what kind of back it has as it's in a frame !

[41st]

There is a smaller version of this badge with a flat back and only one loop to the top of the badge. For years I thought it was a defective or unfinished badge, or indeed a fake.
Then I found out what it was for. There is a version of the 'Duty' plate which is in two parts and this badge is the front section which is slotted through the back plate.
When this type of plate was used and why they went in for a two piece rather than a single die stamped sheet I don't know.
I will post a photo of this unusual variant when I get some time.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Jibba Jabba

Does anyone know the significance of the Welsh Guards solid back?

I thought this was a broken shoulder title, but the titles do not have two lugs on the leek.

Thank you for looking.

The Welsh Guards when formed (1915) were in a difficult position as to how they could make their badge distinctive as most 'Welsh' icons were already being used by other well established regiments and something unique was required. The use of a 'Leek' to mark Welsh soldiers was mentioned in Shakespeare's Henry V and so this was felt to be an ideal and ancient solution with great pedigree.

Personally I believe that the simple answer to this question of the solid back is that the flimsiness of the 'Leek' design when compared with other Guard's regiments Cap Stars and Grenades led to a request for the badge to be manufactured in as solid a fashion as possible in order to make it 'soldier proof' and able to withstand the rough and tumble of a military kit bag and handling. The solid back made the badge as substantial as possible given its limited size when viewed alongside the other Guards devices.

Similarly, when the regiment was formed all the Guards regiments were wearing a 2 part shoulder title of a regimental 'device' set over 2 letters (GG, CG, SG, IG, WG respectively) and the device used by the WG was of course the leek and I believe it was the same size as the cap version and fitted with loops to pierce the shoulder strap but uniquely, adjoined to the letters WG as opposed to separate. Worn in pairs these shoulder titles took a lot of battering on the shoulders and had to be robust. Impractical when carrying a rifle at the slope they were soon replaced by cloth shoulder titles, among the first to be worn. The WG version had a solid back (for strength) and it could be that some of these were somehow severed from the WG and used as head dress devices, although a second loop would have to be soldered on.

Interestingly when No 2 Dress was issued in the 1960s to replace Battle Dress these metal shoulder titles were reintroduced (albeit in aa rather than brass and wm) as the then rifle, the SLR, was not carried at the slope on the shoulder and the titles were a distinctive way to mark the Guards, who did not wear collar badges. When the SLR was replaced and it was decided that the new rifle would be carried at the slope (largely because it was so short) a return to cloth shoulder titles became necessary and the whole process had come full circle.

[Jibba Jabba]

Thank you for the information Toby. I bought this badge for 6 pounds last summer. Some of the other guards badges can be very hard to distinguish from the reproductions e.g. the Grenadiers. This is now one of my favourite badges in my collection because Ive had such an excellent repsonse in this thread.

[jeanpit-frenchy]

my welsh guards title is on 1 piece with lugs like on WESTLAKE ...