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  #1  
Old 03-08-21, 01:40 AM
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Default Victorian marksman badges changes

When was the change made from the crossed muskets (Enfield rifle?) to the Lee Metford/Enfield rifle on the marksman sleeve badges? I am assuming some time in the late 1890s?

CB
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Old 03-08-21, 03:20 AM
enfant perdus enfant perdus is offline
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1890 would be when one should start seeing the Lee-Metford represented. I doubt they made any changes when the "long" Lee-Enfield was adopted. They're enough alike that, in embroidered form, it would hard to differentiate.

There are Victorian examples that are also somewhat stylized, in that they don't appear to represent any particular pattern of long arm, and sometimes it's not even clear whether they're meant to be muskets or rifles. Oddly, I don't think they ever made any insignia representing the Martini-Henry.
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Old 03-08-21, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbuehler View Post
When was the change made from the crossed muskets (Enfield rifle?) to the Lee Metford/Enfield rifle on the marksman sleeve badges? I am assuming some time in the late 1890s?

CB
The studies that we’ve done for various series at uniformology.com suggest it was 1898 (this was after examining photos of artillery, cavalry, infantry and the school of musketry insignia). Here are images from the current artillery series: http://www.uniformology.com/R-ARTY-07.html
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  #4  
Old 03-08-21, 05:48 PM
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Do any members have photographs of regular artillerymen wearing the marksman badge please?
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Old 03-08-21, 08:05 PM
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Default Marksman's badges

The frame I have added has not been opened since it was put together in the early part of the last century, all awarded to Charles Malschinger who served in 3rd Middlesex Artillery Volunteers and 21st Middlesex Rifle Volunteers.

Variations in the crossed rifles marksman's badges.

Rob
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  #6  
Old 03-08-21, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofacqms View Post
The frame I have added has not been opened since it was put together in the early part of the last century, all awarded to Charles Malschinger who served in 3rd Middlesex Artillery Volunteers and 21st Middlesex Rifle Volunteers.

Variations in the crossed rifles marksman's badges.

Rob
Beautiful thank you, but what of the regular artillery? I don't think I have [or have seen] any regular marksman photographed.

Incidentally the Brigade Supply badge is extraordinarily rare, and, again, I have never seen one "in wear".

Last edited by grumpy; 03-08-21 at 08:32 PM. Reason: addendum
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Old 04-08-21, 03:15 AM
enfant perdus enfant perdus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofacqms View Post
The frame I have added has not been opened since it was put together in the early part of the last century, all awarded to Charles Malschinger who served in 3rd Middlesex Artillery Volunteers and 21st Middlesex Rifle Volunteers.

Variations in the crossed rifles marksman's badges.

Rob
Wow, those are really lovely!
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  #8  
Old 04-08-21, 10:27 AM
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Artillery Marksmen should be very rare in the period: whereas infantry, cavalry, RE fired the annual classification course to the full extent, other arms and services and departments fired a limited exercise and were not eligible for classification. The ASC, being responsible for the protection of the RAMC, had the most training of the "others".
Source: Musketry Regs 1898. Other years are available.

None of which makes it impossible for a well-motivated RA man or unit to gain a badge ............... there were ways and means ............ It would be good to see an example worn.

I exclude Militia and VF from the above, and have indeed seen cross muskets/ rifles on Volunteer RA.
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Old 05-08-21, 01:56 AM
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I was inspired to look through my digitized PPC and photo collection (mostly 1903-1918), checking the Arms & Services for relevant badges. So far of the roughly 200 I've viewed...not a crossed rifle in sight. I've gone through all the RGA, RHA, and RFA (which are the majority), as well as ASC, AOC and even RAMC and AVC, because why not.

I'm curious to check the RE next, but I was really hoping to come up with a winner!
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Old 05-08-21, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfant perdus View Post
I was inspired to look through my digitized PPC and photo collection (mostly 1903-1918), checking the Arms & Services for relevant badges. So far of the roughly 200 I've viewed...not a crossed rifle in sight. I've gone through all the RGA, RHA, and RFA (which are the majority), as well as ASC, AOC and even RAMC and AVC, because why not.

I'm curious to check the RE next, but I was really hoping to come up with a winner!
Thank you for looking, I am not surprised, I don't think the uniformology inclusion is correct, but always happy to learn. I do recollect that the auxiliary RA could at some stage shoot the full classification course and I think a proper look through my archive might find a few badges on Vol RA.

Regarding RE, you should find a fair few marksmen..

Again, thank you very much for looking.

Last edited by grumpy; 05-08-21 at 08:09 AM. Reason: addendum
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  #11  
Old 05-08-21, 08:53 AM
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I am not surprised, I don't think the uniformology inclusion is correct,

What about the Gunnery Prize badges?

Marc
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  #12  
Old 05-08-21, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54Bty View Post
I am not surprised, I don't think the uniformology inclusion is correct,

What about the Gunnery Prize badges?

Marc
Marc,

Regarding the Prize badges for RA on uniformology I would make the following observations.

1. I have never seen or heard of crossed guns in a wreath before. If its mentioned in some Regs I would be interested to know.

2. As for the drivers badges I believe the Crossed Whips and Spur badge and the Whip and spur badges co-existed. There is of course another pattern, that of spur above a whip, which I have only ever seen in bullion do is probably Victorian. The first two can be found in khaki thread.

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  #13  
Old 05-08-21, 10:20 AM
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One more comment on uniformology:

The Warrant Officer rank, established in 1881, at first applied only to Conductors of stores and supplies. Later that year, Staff Sergeants class I, Master Gunners Class I and II, Brigade Sergeant-Majors and Quartermasters. (including Brigade Wheeler, Collarmaker and Farrier Sergeant-Majors) were raised to Warrant Rank. Although this new group adopted the Warrant Officer rank, they were not at the same level of Conductors.

There were many Warrant Officers [including troop quartermasters, hospital mates, army surgeons' mates, and schoolmasters from time to time [and discontinuously] before the Conductors, and Conductors were in fact warranted in 1879. These were the first continuous warrants as far as my research demonstrates. Master Gunners First were placed at the same level as Conductors in 1881, only alphabetically listed below.
Master Gunners of Coast Brigades were warranted in 1864 [official sources], although I believe that lapsed and was reinstated in 1881.

Last edited by grumpy; 05-08-21 at 10:25 AM. Reason: addendum
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  #14  
Old 05-08-21, 05:26 PM
enfant perdus enfant perdus is offline
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Always happy to help! I went through all my RE images (only about 40) and, interestingly, no marksmen visible. I emphasize that because many are group shots where the men have their hands clasped behind their backs, or are company pics where anyone not in the first row is chest up or less. Also quite a few in other dress (greatcoats, shorts and shirtsleeves, etc.), or other specialities. I'd forgotten some of the nice RE signals images I have!
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Old 05-08-21, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfant perdus View Post
Always happy to help! I went through all my RE images (only about 40) and, interestingly, no marksmen visible. I emphasize that because many are group shots where the men have their hands clasped behind their backs, or are company pics where anyone not in the first row is chest up or less. Also quite a few in other dress (greatcoats, shorts and shirtsleeves, etc.), or other specialities. I'd forgotten some of the nice RE signals images I have!
.

Thank you I will dig some out.
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