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  #1  
Old 22-07-22, 01:51 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
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Default 14th/20th small voided cartwheel cap badge

https://www.ebay.co.uk/bfl/viewbids/...p2047675.l2565

Not doubt a few of you were watching this one. So reasons why i did not bid:

1. The 14th Hussars sqns continued to wear the small version of the 'cartwheel' cap badge from 1919 upto 1922 and after amalgamation. I have posted photos on the forum of this cap badge with the solid centre in use post WW1.

2. Although the 20th Hussars was reduced to a cadre in 1922 pending disbandment, like several cavalry regiments the junior partner in the amalgamation had a full sqn resurrected: which continued to wear the cap badge and uniforms of the 20th Hussars for a few more years.

3. Circa 1926 the regiment adopted the eagle cap badge that it had worn in India in the 1900's.

4. It was not until 1931 that the eagle was officially recognised and issued.

5. It is my opinion that the 1926 eagles are likely to be the ones found with the FR on the chest.

6. The ebay badge is the collar design of the 14/20 Hussars. However there is no evidence to suggest that it was worn as a cap badge.

7. The use of the Gaunt name on a cap badge in the 1920's would not be on an issued badge but only privately bought. The regt bought the eagle design.

8. The ebay badge stamp is not one I like especially with the full stop.
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  #2  
Old 22-07-22, 09:51 PM
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Some interesting observations Alan. Personally I’ve always been happy with mine, but for the £8 it cost I’m losing no sleep.

I would agree the slider and mark on the eBay badge are wrong. From the letter spacing I believe it’s a 15mm repro mark. Perhaps worth noting the verdigris / chemical attack to the reverse, so there’s a chance it may be a replacement.

To a limited extent Gaunt were marking some badges early post WW1 with straight marks. I own this Rough Riders with an 11mm mark by them, they converted to RHA in 1920 if I recall correctly.
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  #3  
Old 23-07-22, 07:11 AM
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It would be nice to find evidence that either version of the small voided badge was worn by the 14/20th at sometime between 1922 and 1926 (1931) but so far I have been unable to find any thing that suggests that was the case. Considering that cavalry regiments were relatively small the vast number of voided badges on the market would suggest that they have been widely faked.

This is from https://www.theogilbymuster.com/sear...pellCheck=true

and shows the small unvoided 14th Hussars badge worn post WW1.
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Last edited by Alan O; 01-10-23 at 08:04 PM.
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  #4  
Old 23-07-22, 10:16 AM
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I take your points Alan and admit my knowledge of post WW1 cavalry amalgamations and changes isn’t on par with your own.

Nonetheless from your reply there does seem a window of a few years where there’s room. The badges I’ve shown I do not believe are repros, the metal, strike, fonts, slider shapes and age etc. all look right in my experience.

Hopefully a photo turns up, albeit, it would be a huge ask to be able to read the scroll. However, since the design appears to be a logical progression if one was worn the likelihood of the others existence and wear is apparent.

Until that photo of the 13th Hussars Z scroll badge turned up being worn by an OR the die cast examples found on sliders were eyed a bit askance. Indeed the date of that photo highlights the complexities of badges of that era.

As the old saying goes absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence. We still have no photographic evidence of dozens of badges inc. double scroll Nelly, curly scroll Leinster. Only 2 years ago did a picture come to light of the Middx PWPB.

Clearly post WW1 cavalry and the amalgamations is a complex period re badge insignia.
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  #5  
Old 01-10-23, 08:13 PM
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https://www.theogilbymuster.com/record/835380

Small solid 14th Hussars cap badge worn with voided collars. Dated 1928-33 but some of the photos in the collection seem to be early 20's.
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Last edited by Alan O; 04-02-24 at 02:19 PM.
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  #6  
Old 01-10-23, 08:15 PM
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https://www.theogilbymuster.com/record/835390 same period but appears to be the eagle in the cap.

6 years Good Conduct but no medal ribbons so likely to be late 1920s or early 30s.

The background is UK so if that is correct it should be between 1926 and 1930 before the embarkation to Egypt.

Last edited by Alan O; 02-10-23 at 04:04 PM.
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  #7  
Old 01-10-23, 08:16 PM
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same period https://www.theogilbymuster.com/record/835396 the 20th Hussars sqn.
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  #8  
Old 01-10-23, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
same period https://www.theogilbymuster.com/record/835396 the 20th Hussars sqn.
I note the trooper in back appears to have a collar badge on his cap!

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  #9  
Old 02-10-23, 07:36 AM
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It is dated 1923 so after amalgamation and the reconstitution of the 20th Hussars Sqn. It says Laachem so would be whilst the regiment was in Germany as the Army of Occupation. There are a number of photos in this album and in others in the KRH collection that show the small cap badge being worn in Germany just after WW1. Collars are not yet worn so they seem to have been readopted some time after the regiments return to UK in 1923.

They returned to UK in that year.
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Last edited by Alan O; 02-10-23 at 04:10 PM.
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  #10  
Old 02-10-23, 07:42 PM
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Thanks to the superb collection of photos and documents online from the KRH collection, I think it is worth noting the following badges are found in their archive:

The regiment's first use of the garter and lion device was in 1915 when they wore it as a cap badge aka the cartwheel.

Pre WW1 cap and collars were the eagle. The No 1 parade dress used lone eagles for cap and collars. The oval badge with eagle is frustratingly absent from any photos.

The regt wore a dark square (dark blue?) on their FSH on the side of the pagri.

No collars were worn in WW1 or when the smaller garter badge with a solid centre was worn from 1919.

The screenshot is from the KRH museum website.

The smaller solid cap badge starts being worn with voided 14th H garter collars early-mid 1920s as the photos above show.

1926 the regiment readopts the FR eagle with voided garter collars.

1923-1930 the 20th Hussars Sqn wears 20X cap and collars.

From 1931 the 14th/20th Hussars eagle with a plain chest is adopted across the regiment and worn with voided 14/20 H garter collars.

This remains unchanged until replaced by a/a: first all gold and then part black painted.
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Last edited by Alan O; 08-06-24 at 09:55 AM.
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  #11  
Old 11-06-24, 07:11 PM
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One interesting fact is that the photos of the 14th H 1915-22 do not show any collars being worn only cap badges (large cartwheel but mostly small solid one right up to 1922).

The voided collar badges appear post amalgamation. I do wonder whether from 1923 the collars are the voided 14/20 worn with the solid cap badge? 14/20 S/Ts were sealed in 1923 so there is precedence. The 20th Sqn wore 20th cap and collars until 1930.
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  #12  
Old 14-06-24, 10:44 AM
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This photo is dated 1925 and shows the small solid 14th Hussars cap badge in use.
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