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  #1  
Old 20-11-22, 09:58 AM
Davidjsch Davidjsch is offline
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Default Scots Guards CSM

I’ve bought a Scots Guards CSM rank insignia for a friend who’s father was a CSM in the Scots Guards during WW 2

She really doesn’t know much about him and so I’d like to explain the significance of each item in the badge.

I think I’ve worked out all expect the crossed sabers at the bottom. I would be grateful if someone could explain to me so I don’t make a fool of myself or insult the rank

Many thanks
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  #2  
Old 20-11-22, 12:41 PM
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Hello David, welcome to the Forum. Your account is active and open for posts.
Posting an image would be most helpful.
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  #3  
Old 20-11-22, 01:31 PM
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A bullion crowned crimson silk flag on its staff ,bearing bullion Star of the Order of the Thistle with Sphinx below resting in a laurel wreath; beneath the flag, crossed swords.
Andy
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  #4  
Old 20-11-22, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Davidjsch View Post
I’ve bought a Scots Guards CSM rank insignia for a friend who’s father was a CSM in the Scots Guards during WW 2

She really doesn’t know much about him and so I’d like to explain the significance of each item in the badge.

I think I’ve worked out all expect the crossed sabers at the bottom. I would be grateful if someone could explain to me so I don’t make a fool of myself or insult the rank

Many thanks
The rank of Colour Sergeant was first instituted across the Army as a whole in 1813 after it had been in use for a while beforehand by the Guards and the 95th Rifles that one sergeant in each company was appointed as the most senior and the link overall between officers and other ranks. From the outset it was his role to overwatch company duties and deliver orders from the chain of command and most specifically the company commander. He was also to escort Ensigns (the most junior officers) when they carried company level colours as the Guards did.

The Foot Guards regimental colours were different to the Line, in that they carried a special design of colour that represented the crown and dignity of the Sovereign (himself/herself) in vivid crimson, with each individual company colour bearing special devices associated with the regiment’s identity and associated iconography. This is why each of the colours with varied designs marking the history is rotated through use. The Star of the Order of the Thistle was appointed as one of 16 regimental badges with mottoes borne in rotation. Also the Sphinx and Egypt 1801 borne in commemoration of the regiments participatation at the Battle of Alexandria in that year, where it fought along with the Coldstream Guards, who also bear that honour.

One of the features of the Battle of Alexandria was the Mamelukes of the Imperial Guard, who were ethnically diverse slave-soldiers and freed slaves who fought as mercenaries for many rulers of the past and then for Napoleon. By his decree the Mamluks were subsequently organized into a unit attached to the Chasseurs-à-Cheval of the Imperial Guard. The officers were Frenchmen, the troopers were a mixture of Syrians, Greeks, Circassains, Crimeans, Armenians Egyptians, Georgians, Arabs and Turks. Individuals came from Albania, Hungary, Malta and Tunisia. Every Mameluk was armed with two brace of pistols, a very curved sabre, dagger, mace and eventually a battle-axe.

The deeply curved sabre that the Mamluks carried became iconic of the Egyptian campaign and, copying French officers, some British officers began to carry them too. Today they are used as part symbol of several rank badges of General Officer grades, and they were subsequently also adopted by the two Guards Regiments that fought in Egypt for their colour sergeant badges. The Grenadier Guards badge has different swords accordingly.

The badges designed and adopted for the then three Foot Guards regiments** subsequently formed the basis and inspiration for the Colour Badge adopted by all the combatant arms of the Army, including Line infantry, the Rifle Regiments and, initially, the Royal Artillery and the Royal Engineers. Each had their own design on a common theme, but unlike all others the Rifles device did not feature colours. Partly because of the expense of coloured silks and high quality bullion wire embroidery, all of them eventually abandoned the badge and the sole remaining regular units to wear colour badges of such splendid design are the Brigade of Guards and the Royal Marines.

**when the Irish and Welsh Guards were formed the Mamluk sword was so well embedded in British military culture that they quite naturally elected to incorporate them in the design of their own colour badges.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 20-11-22 at 11:25 PM.
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  #5  
Old 20-11-22, 07:52 PM
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What about the H.A.C. Wearing it also

Regards
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  #6  
Old 20-11-22, 07:58 PM
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What about the H.A.C. Wearing it also

Regards
The infantry element of the HAC elected at a later point in their history (given that they go back to the trained bands) to adopt a uniform emulating that of the Grenadier Guards, but with silver instead of gold lace. As part of that they adopted Guards type colour badges. I must admit that I overlooked them, in part because of their auxiliary and Johnny-come-lately status in terms of Guards style appointments. Nonetheless, they do still wear their own design of colour badge.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 20-11-22 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 20-11-22, 09:40 PM
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I also have a distant memory of the London Scottish also wearing one with blue flag and Scottish Lion on it.

I havent got one though.

I fact here is a like to some decidely dodgy ones on Minden.

https://mindenmilitaria.com/shop.php...+scottish&pg=2

regards
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  #8  
Old 20-11-22, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by manchesters View Post
I also have a distant memory of the London Scottish also wearing one with blue flag and Scottish Lion on it.

I havent got one though.

I fact here is a like to some decidely dodgy ones on Minden.

https://mindenmilitaria.com/shop.php...+scottish&pg=2

regards
Yes all the combatant arms, less cavalry had them until they gradually faded out. The first to go was artillery and then engineers. The line infantry, including TF, lost there’s along with full dress in 1914.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 20-11-22 at 11:50 PM.
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  #9  
Old 21-11-22, 11:50 AM
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Yes all the combatant arms, less cavalry had them until they gradually faded out. The first to go was artillery and then engineers. The line infantry, including TF, lost there’s along with full dress in 1914.
Which combatant arms had Colour badges like the Guards?

regards
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  #10  
Old 21-11-22, 05:48 PM
Davidjsch Davidjsch is offline
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Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
The rank of Colour Sergeant was first instituted across the Army as a whole in 1813 after it had been in use for a while beforehand by the Guards and the 95th Rifles that one sergeant in each company was appointed as the most senior and the link overall between officers and other ranks. From the outset it was his role to overwatch company duties and deliver orders from the chain of command and most specifically the company commander. He was also to escort Ensigns (the most junior officers) when they carried company level colours as the Guards did.

The Foot Guards regimental colours were different to the Line, in that they carried a special design of colour that represented the crown and dignity of the Sovereign (himself/herself) in vivid crimson, with each individual company colour bearing special devices associated with the regiment’s identity and associated iconography. This is why each of the colours with varied designs marking the history is rotated through use. The Star of the Order of the Thistle was appointed as one of 16 regimental badges with mottoes borne in rotation. Also the Sphinx and Egypt 1801 borne in commemoration of the regiments participatation at the Battle of Alexandria in that year, where it fought along with the Coldstream Guards, who also bear that honour.

One of the features of the Battle of Alexandria was the Mamelukes of the Imperial Guard, who were ethnically diverse slave-soldiers and freed slaves who fought as mercenaries for many rulers of the past and then for Napoleon. By his decree the Mamluks were subsequently organized into a unit attached to the Chasseurs-à-Cheval of the Imperial Guard. The officers were Frenchmen, the troopers were a mixture of Syrians, Greeks, Circassains, Crimeans, Armenians Egyptians, Georgians, Arabs and Turks. Individuals came from Albania, Hungary, Malta and Tunisia. Every Mameluk was armed with two brace of pistols, a very curved sabre, dagger, mace and eventually a battle-axe.

The deeply curved sabre that the Mamluks carried became iconic of the Egyptian campaign and, copying French officers, some British officers began to carry them too. Today they are used as part symbol of several rank badges of General Officer grades, and they were subsequently also adopted by the two Guards Regiments that fought in Egypt for their colour sergeant badges. The Grenadier Guards badge has different swords accordingly.

The badges designed and adopted for the then three Foot Guards regiments** subsequently formed the basis and inspiration for the Colour Badge adopted by all the combatant arms of the Army, including Line infantry, the Rifle Regiments and, initially, the Royal Artillery and the Royal Engineers. Each had their own design on a common theme, but unlike all others the Rifles device did not feature colours. Partly because of the expense of coloured silks and high quality bullion wire embroidery, all of them eventually abandoned the badge and the sole remaining regular units to wear colour badges of such splendid design are the Brigade of Guards and the Royal Marines.

**when the Irish and Welsh Guards were formed the Mamluk sword was so well embedded in British military culture that they quite naturally elected to incorporate them in the design of their own colour badges.
WOW. many thanks for your full explanation….. I’m very grateful.
They say you learn something every day, so from an old Bluebell Vet… ? my thanks….
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  #11  
Old 22-11-22, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by manchesters View Post
Which combatant arms had Colour badges like the Guards?

regards
Not exactly “like the the Guards”, that’s not what I said, but based upon them. I was paraphrasing [almost to the letter] Dawnay in his seminal book about the history of Warrant and NCO badges of rank. The elements that made up the badges were similar. Line regiments and Royal Marines included a chevron, a crown, a colour on its staff, and crossed swords. The Rifle Regiments had a Laurel wreath and bugle in lieu of a colour, and a crown and crossed swords. And the RA and RE (combatant arms) very similar to the line infantry, but with three stripes instead of one. Later on things changed, but that’s how they were at the start. I had explained the main point of this in the longer post I made initially. None of the designs incorporated the Egypt associated pattern of Mameluke sword favoured by the Scots and Coldstream Guards, instead using that of the Grenadiers.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 29-11-22 at 04:54 PM.
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  #12  
Old 22-11-22, 05:09 PM
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WOW. many thanks for your full explanation….. I’m very grateful.
They say you learn something every day, so from an old Bluebell Vet… ? my thanks….
You are very welcome. “Bluebell”, wasn’t that the REME Appointment Title? We are showing our age.

NB. I forgot to mention that there are a variety of ways to spell “Mameluke”.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 23-11-22 at 12:20 AM.
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