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  #1  
Old 27-08-19, 06:45 PM
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Default London Regt - EJ Martin

London Regt article by EJ Martin. There's nothing too revolutionary but interesting all the same.
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  #2  
Old 27-08-19, 06:47 PM
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and the rest
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  #3  
Old 27-08-19, 06:49 PM
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final pages
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  #4  
Old 27-08-19, 06:49 PM
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Again, thanks button.
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  #5  
Old 27-08-19, 07:21 PM
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Default Artists Rifles.

That seems to answer the question of which Artists Rifles cap badge pattern came first.
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  #6  
Old 27-08-19, 08:08 PM
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  #7  
Old 27-08-19, 08:42 PM
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He was wrong about the QW&CSR cloth title though Alan, they were worn with one of each as the pair, or supposed to be!!!
Wilf
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  #8  
Old 27-08-19, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoot View Post
That seems to answer the question of which Artists Rifles cap badge pattern came first.
But... does it categorically?

Picture 1 - sketch approving ‘Artists’ badge design - upturned scroll ends - dated 1895 and held in National Archives (image belongs to Peter J)

Picture 2 - Colour Sgt. Hammond during the Boer War wearing the BB Artists with upturned scroll ends. This date still the 20th Middlesex RV (image belongs to Peter99)

Picture 3 - Wearing the pre-1908 20th Middlesex RV badge again with Artists title but now downturned pointed scroll ends. This variety of badge is found both looped and slidered suggesting post 1903 manufacture.

Picture 4 - 1913 summer cap at Abergavenny a mix of ‘Artists Rifles’ and ‘Artists’ with upturned scroll ends.

Picture 5 - wartime, 1914 at Salisbury plain. Ditto mix of badges.

Picture 6 - much later badge circa WW2.

I would agree the Artists Rifles is the 1908 badge, however, this still makes the overall running order of it’s predecessors very complex.

From the design approval drawing and Colour Sgt. Hammond photos provided by both Peter’s I think we can safely say the ‘Artists’ was the ‘first pattern’ albeit still the old RV.

Now is where it gets complicated. It then must mean either...

The picture 3 RV badge was worn only for a VERY short time and the picture 1/2 badge re-adopted prior to 1908 before introduction of Artists Rifles pattern.

Or

Picture 3 badge worn up to 1908. Then Artists Rifles badge introduced but prior to WW1 the picture 1/2 badge was readopted.

It is of course possible old stock badges were issued in a territorial unit, however, I would expect these to be the pattern before rather than two patterns previous making the top option my preferred. Wartime pressure I don’t think is a factor as a mix of badges is being seen being worn in 1913 at a pre-war camp.

Finally, after all that the Artists badge was (perhaps) re-re-adopted circa WW2.

If the first option is correct I suspect the period of wear the the badge in picture 3 can only be 2 or 3 years post 1903... which would explain why it’s a rather rare.

Picture 7 added to better illustrate the RV badge with pointed scroll ends.

*Peter J and Peter99 I hope you don’t mine me using your photos, please let me know and I’ll remove if this causes an issue.

P.S. sorry for hijacking the thread. Wonderful articles, thanks Alan.

Last edited by Luke H; 27-08-19 at 10:19 PM.
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  #9  
Old 27-08-19, 09:57 PM
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I do think the article hits the nail on the head with the suggestion that voided Paddington Rifles badges are officers.

Thanks again Alan for sharing.
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  #10  
Old 27-08-19, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
But... does it categorically?

Picture 1 - sketch approving ‘Artists’ badge design - upturned scroll ends - dated 1895 and held in National Archives (image belongs to Peter J)

Picture 2 - Colour Sgt. Hammond during the Boer War wearing the BB Artists with upturned scroll ends. This date still the 20th Middlesex RV (image belongs to Peter99)

Picture 3 - Wearing the pre-1908 20th Middlesex RV badge again with Artists title but now downturned pointed scroll ends. This variety of badge is found both looped and slidered suggesting post 1903 manufacture.

Picture 4 - 1913 summer cap at Abergavenny a mix of ‘Artists Rifles’ and ‘Artists’ with upturned scroll ends.

Picture 5 - wartime, 1914 at Salisbury plain. Ditto mix of badges.

Picture 6 - much later badge circa WW2.

I would agree the Artists Rifles is the 1908 badge, however, this still makes the overall running order of it’s predecessors very complex.

From the design approval drawing and Colour Sgt. Hammond photos provided by both Peter’s I think we can safely say the ‘Artists’ was the ‘first pattern’ albeit still the old RV.

Now is where it gets complicated. It then must mean either...

The picture 3 RV badge was worn only for a VERY short time and the picture 1/2 badge re-adopted prior to 1908 before introduction of Artists Rifles pattern.

Or

Picture 3 badge worn up to 1908. Then Artists Rifles badge introduced but prior to WW1 the picture 1/2 badge was readopted.

It is of course possible old stock badges were issued in a territorial unit, however, I would expect these to be the pattern before rather than two patterns previous making the top option my preferred. Wartime pressure I don’t think is a factor as a mix of badges is being seen being worn in 1913 at a pre-war camp.

Finally, after all that the Artists badge was (perhaps) re-re-adopted circa WW2.

If the first option is correct I suspect the period of wear the the badge in picture 3 can only be 2 or 3 years post 1903... which would explain why it’s a rather rare.

Picture 7 added to better illustrate the RV badge with pointed scroll ends.

*Peter J and Peter99 I hope you don’t mine me using your photos, please let me know and I’ll remove if this cases an issue.
Great information Luke, very interesting.
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  #11  
Old 28-06-21, 09:12 PM
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Default Artists Rifles - A few of questions

A few of questions please on Artists badges.

1. Were there two patterns of WM Artists Rifles badges?

2. Were any WM badges made with loops?

3. Opinions on the attached.

Many thanks

Chris
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  #12  
Old 28-06-21, 09:21 PM
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1. Not sure I understand? Do you mean dies rather than patterns, if so all the genuine WM Artists Rifles badges I’ve seen are from the same die, yes.

2. Every one of those genuine WM Artists Rifles badges has been on E-W loops.

3. Point 2 answers this one. In this case it’s the standard Martin Marsh fake.
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  #13  
Old 28-06-21, 10:09 PM
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Thanks Luke
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  #14  
Old 28-06-21, 11:25 PM
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Yes there are two patterns. One with the Artists Rifles scroll and another with just Artists on it.
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  #15  
Old 28-06-21, 11:50 PM
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I had assumed as the photo shown was of the ‘Artists Rifles’ scroll pattern all the questions were related to that.

As Phil says there an ‘Artists’ scroll version also found in WM. The design appears to have been worn either side of ‘Artists Rifles’ type. The ‘Artists’ version is much, much more common in WM and found with a slider fixing and occasionally on loops. Several dies exist for the latter badge.
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