British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > General Topics.

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 30-11-22, 02:45 PM
Luc's Avatar
Luc Luc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Delft, Netherlands
Posts: 2,904
Default Gaunt card question

There is a Gregory and Quilter parachute badge for sale at the moment which is mounted on a Gaunt London card:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175510883297?

On the card is written "established 200 years", but its London office opened in 1905. Can someone please explain?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg s-l1600.jpg (51.9 KB, 86 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 30-11-22, 02:49 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,665
Default

Source https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/J._R._Gaunt_and_Son

J. R. Gaunt and Son

as J. R. Gaunt and Son of Warstone Parade and Alfred Street, Birmingham. (1922)

as J. R. Gaunt and Sons of Warstone Parade Works, Birmingham. (1929)

Established 1750

Manufacturer of military and uniform buttons from 1870 to 1973.

1896 Military, Naval, Railway and Police button and ornament manufacturers. [1]

1896/7 Directory: Advertiser. More detail. [2]

1922 Listed Exhibitor. Manufacturers of Buttons, Badges, Medals, Whistles, Belt Buckles, Shoe Buckles, Safety Razors, Ladies' Handbag Frames, Advertising Novelties, Fancy Metal Goods, Souvenirs. (Stand No. E.26a) [3]

1929 Listed Exhibitor. Manufacturers of Buttons, Badges, Medals, Buckles, and Metal and Enamelled Fancy Articles, Bag Frames, Souvenirs. Birmingham Jewellers' and Silversmiths' Association Member. (Stand Nos. J.43 and J.54) [4]

1991 Purchased by Firmin and Sons.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 30-11-22, 02:49 PM
altcar73 altcar73 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Formby, Merseyside
Posts: 1,863
Default

It opened an office in London in 1905, but its manufacturing base had always been in Birmingham and remained there until the company ceased trading.

Dave
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 30-11-22, 03:59 PM
mike_vee's Avatar
mike_vee mike_vee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 3,864
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luc View Post
On the card is written "established 200 years", but its London office opened in 1905. Can someone please explain?
I think it is possibly an "inherited" claim.

From "TRADES DIRECTORY, 1914."

Quote:
Gaunt J. R. & Son Ltd.(late Ed. Thurkle, est.200 years), military, naval, crest & general uniform buttons & ornaments, whistles, swords, belts, helmets, caps &o. ; gold lace-men & embroiderers : contractors to H.M.Government, 53 Conduit st. Regent street W & Warstone parade works, Birmingham
In 1897 Gaunt & Son purchased Thurkle's business and thereafter used the Thurkle name on swords retailed by themselves.


Photo #1 shows advert from the Volunteer Service Gazette and Military Dispatch (13 September 1901).

Photo #2 from Army List March 1938.

.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Thurkles.jpg (50.2 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg Army List.jpg (71.5 KB, 23 views)
__________________
British Legion/Royal British Legion , Poppy/Remembrance/Commemorative.

Poppy and British Legion Wanted
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 30-11-22, 07:00 PM
magpie's Avatar
magpie magpie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 1,884
Default

The card in the op is just a worthless piece of cardboard, these have been brought up on here before and I contacted a lady at Buckingham Palace who confirmed it 10 years ago.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 30-11-22, 08:51 PM
Luc's Avatar
Luc Luc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Delft, Netherlands
Posts: 2,904
Default

Thank you gentlemen for your replies.
I could not find Gaunt were already established in 1750. It is also good to know that such cards are of little added value.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 30-11-22, 09:39 PM
grey_green_acorn's Avatar
grey_green_acorn grey_green_acorn is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 5,260
Default

Link to previous thread on Gaunt cards and Magpie’s detailed information.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=87548

Tim
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm"
"Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!"
"Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest."
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-12-22, 08:46 AM
mike_vee's Avatar
mike_vee mike_vee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 3,864
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by magpie View Post
The card in the op is just a worthless piece of cardboard, these have been brought up on here before and I contacted a lady at Buckingham Palace who confirmed it 10 years ago.
I had a look at the old threads and agree that the "Royal Warrant" is wrong ....

.... but what I find interesting is that Gaunt used the "Established 200 Years" as early as 1901.

An advert in "1934 Dress Regulations for The Army" has "BY APPOINTMENT TO H.M THE KING" (photo from 2010 thread).

And yet with the 1938 advert that was published in the Army List it seems that the "full" Royal Warrant wasn't always used.


.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1934 Dress Regulations for The Army.jpg (47.6 KB, 15 views)
__________________
British Legion/Royal British Legion , Poppy/Remembrance/Commemorative.

Poppy and British Legion Wanted
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-12-22, 09:03 AM
magpie's Avatar
magpie magpie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 1,884
Default

The card is the appears to be the same as the one I enquired about, I was told it isn't a royal warrant not just wrong as it hast be in the format as described and the quality of print has to be up to a higher standard not just something that vaguely looks like the Royal coat of arms, there are real cards and I have one somewhere and the difference is obvious and I think then that is where they would break the law by using it as it should be displayed form memory.
I'm sure I read on something that popped up on my phone a while back that one of the regiments had been granted a continuation of the use of the Royal Arms and poud to announce it.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-12-22, 11:24 AM
mike_vee's Avatar
mike_vee mike_vee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 3,864
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by magpie View Post
The card is the appears to be the same as the one I enquired about, I was told it isn't a royal warrant not just wrong as it hast be in the format as described and the quality of print has to be up to a higher standard not just something that vaguely looks like the Royal coat of arms, there are real cards and I have one somewhere and the difference is obvious and I think then that is where they would break the law by using it as it should be displayed form memory.
What I find strange is that Gaunt would produce and publish an advert in the 1938 Army List that isn't in the correct format .

Why , if they had a Royal Warrant at that time would they choose not to show it correctly ? Could the cards and adverts be a printer/publisher error using a generic "By Appointment" header instead of the official one ?

.
__________________
British Legion/Royal British Legion , Poppy/Remembrance/Commemorative.

Poppy and British Legion Wanted
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-12-22, 12:14 PM
magpie's Avatar
magpie magpie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 1,884
Default

They may not have held the warrant at that time, a lot of these cards like the one in the op are just a worthless piece of card solely for getting more money for the item being sold, there was loads of reproduction US insignia at Farnham a number of years back with similar style and they asked for good money for junk and as said by the lady at Buckingham Palace who admistered the warrants at the time the card at the op is not a royal warrant.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-12-22, 01:42 PM
altcar73 altcar73 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Formby, Merseyside
Posts: 1,863
Default

The easiest way of obtaining chapter and verse of the periods during which J. R. Gaunt held a Royal Warrant is to contact the Royal Warrant Holders Association and ask them to look at their records. That's if you really want to get to the crux of the discussion.

Printed material can vary depending on when it was printed and who printed it so I would not get to wound up about that. At the end of the day, it's really academic. The firm no longer exist.

Dave.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-12-22, 02:33 PM
magpie's Avatar
magpie magpie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 1,884
Default

The address is number 2 Buckingham Palace, I did ask if when she had time if she could give me a time line of when they had held the warrant but that was 10 years ago, the thing now is that for quite a while now these fake/phoney or what ever else you would like to call the are being used as some sort of giving extra value to an item when they are nothing more than a piece of card.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-12-22, 02:58 PM
mike_vee's Avatar
mike_vee mike_vee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 3,864
Default

This is getting interesting !

In an earlier (2013) post you said :
Quote:
I have asked if gaunt had a warrant before 1940 as i'm sure they must and i am waiting for a reply as the information is in the archives.
The advert from "1934 Dress Regulations for The Army" shows the full "Royal Warrant" and I have a boxed Gaunt "British Legion" badges from early 1920's which shows they had one at that time.

NB: Date of British Legion badges based on membership number and Gaunt address. (Showroom located at 60 Conduit Street London 1918 - 1925)

So while it is possible they 'lost' the warrant for a few years (1936-1940 ?) is it also possible they used the basic "By Appointment" heading on adverts and cards during this short period ?

Quote:
What happens to a company or individual when a Royal Warrant is cancelled?
They are normally allowed up to 12 months to alter their packaging, stationery and advertising and to remove the Royal Arms from their buildings and vehicles.
One other 'suggestion' is that when King George V died in 1936 there was a "gap" in the Royal Warrants , from 1937 the Gaunt adverts in the Army Lists used the basic "By Appointment" one but in May 1940 the same adverts had "By Appointment to the Late King George V".


Quote:
What happens when the Grantor dies?
The Royal Warrant will become void but the company or individual may continue to use the Royal Arms in connection with the business for up to two years, provided there is no significant change within the company concerned. The Royal Household will review Warrant grants upon a change of the reigning Sovereign.

So , while I agree that unscrupulous people may produce cards to up the price of items I think it is possible that Gaunt may have used them but only for a couple of years .

.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg By Appointment.jpg (77.5 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg Gaunt May 1940.jpg (47.2 KB, 15 views)
__________________
British Legion/Royal British Legion , Poppy/Remembrance/Commemorative.

Poppy and British Legion Wanted
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-12-22, 11:21 AM
mike_vee's Avatar
mike_vee mike_vee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 3,864
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_vee View Post
One other 'suggestion' is that when King George V died in 1936 there was a "gap" in the Royal Warrants , from 1937 the Gaunt adverts in the Army Lists used the basic "By Appointment" one but in May 1940 the same adverts had "By Appointment to the Late King George V".
Did a bit more digging in the Army Lists and found that in July 1936 the Gaunt advert showed the full Royal Warrant , in 1937/1938 they used the basic "By Appointment" one and changed to the "By appointment to the Late King George V" in January 1939.

I decided to check on Firmin & Son Ltd. and discovered that in 1937/1938 they also used the basic "By Appointment" one and then changed to "By Appointment to the Late King George V" in April 1939 (which was still used in April 1940).

So , it would appear that for a 2 year period it was accepted (and common) practice to use the basic "By Appointment" on adverts etc.

Some firms were then permitted to style themselves "By Appointment to the late King George V.," entitling them to display the Royal Arms, but not to fly the Royal Standard, nor to use the word " Royal ".

Quote:
Then the Royal Household will review Warrant grants upon a change of the reigning Sovereign.
Summary : Were the cards produced and used , I don't know but they would not have been illegal at the time.

I have found several example of the Gregory and Quilter parachute badge on Gaunt cards (all the same as the one in post #1 - Warwick Street address).

But .... I have also seen numerous other different badges on 'similar' "By Appointment" cards but without an actual full address (only London and Birmingham) , I don't know if these badges would have been produced/sold during the short period that the cards may have been used.
Therefore I would have my doubts about these other cards being genuine.
.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Gaunt July 1936.jpg (102.7 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg Firmin & Sons Ltd. January 1937.jpg (93.3 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg Firmin & Sons Ltd. April 1939.jpg (77.0 KB, 5 views)
__________________
British Legion/Royal British Legion , Poppy/Remembrance/Commemorative.

Poppy and British Legion Wanted
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:58 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.