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  #31  
Old 10-10-14, 08:41 AM
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irishhorse irishhorse is offline
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Default Royal Irish Rifles Blackened Brass.

Picked up a blackened brass RIR cap badge. But its not got the usual hair pin slider, the slider is also quite long. Any further information on this badge would be welcome.
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  #32  
Old 10-10-14, 04:51 PM
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John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
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IH

this is SPN 5849 sealed 30/03/1903 [WO359/11 p218 and WO359/12 p154].

It was re-sealed as SPN 5849A on 16/07/1907 with the slider moved.

I cannot tell nor do I know the details of the movement of the point of attachment of the slider. I speculate that the slider was moved to a point just above the top of the harp and at the bottom of the crown where the WM pattern 7730 usually has the slider attached.

The doubled over slider might precede 1907 (a temp. fix to a weakened badge design) or the 1907 re-sealing might have been the slider ordered to be doubled over, I simply do not know for sure.

My guess is that the doubled over slider precedes the re-sealing in 1907 as the Loyals 3rd Pattern cap badge(which I believe had the "hairpin slider") SPN 4515B was sealed early - 28/05/1902.

What length is the non-doubled over slider? I believe the original long sliders of 2. 1902 were 2" long and shortened (The National Archives, ACD Record of Changes, Catalogue reference W.O. 359 , vol. 14, 80, under authority ACD/N Western/1433 dated 28th March 1906). Less than the 2" (which I think it is from eye-balling your image) along with a point of attachment similiar to the later WM badges would I THINK make this a strong candidate for being a sample of 5849A


John

Last edited by John Mulcahy; 10-10-14 at 05:03 PM. Reason: Added slider shortening reference.
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  #33  
Old 15-10-15, 12:29 PM
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Default Irish Rifles Blackened Badge

Picked up another with a the shorter slider. Same length as the hairpin type.
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  #34  
Old 21-02-16, 03:55 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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JT,
here you go with both HP and Standard Sliders!

Andy
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  #35  
Old 20-10-17, 07:45 PM
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Default 1902-11 RIR CAP BADGE

A couple of examples

Both BB - one long slider and one hairpin.
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File Type: jpg 20171020_175424_resized_1.jpg (46.0 KB, 48 views)
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  #36  
Old 24-08-19, 05:06 PM
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Default What have I here?

Hello there,

My first post I know I'm bumping an old thread but it made sense to post within it.

I have a few cap badges given to me by my Uncle who served (post WWII), plus my own (3 Queens) and I thought it would be nice to try and obtain one from my Grandfather's regiment too. He served in the 2nd Royal Irish Rifles 1911 - 1919.

So what have I here, it looks a little different from those posted so far. Any opinions greatly apppreciated.

Thanks in advance

(Sorry, I did rotate the photos before posting, honest!)
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Last edited by Trav; 24-08-19 at 05:08 PM. Reason: apologies for sideways photos
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  #37  
Old 24-08-19, 05:12 PM
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It's the pre-1902 badge. I believe it was worn on the Field Service Cap.
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  #38  
Old 24-08-19, 05:15 PM
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That was fast! Thanks ever so much, I'm going to have to keep searching then
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  #39  
Old 24-08-19, 05:28 PM
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The 2nd Bn were slower than the 1st Bn to change over from the black to white metal badge but if he served until 1919 he would have been wearing a wm badge.


Alan
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  #40  
Old 24-08-19, 06:57 PM
Trav Trav is offline
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So this would originally have been black?

My GF was captured in 1914 and spent the whole war as a POW and then some, as he was interned in Holland until 1919. If he still owned a cap badge at that point, would it have been wm with a slider, or lugs?
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  #41  
Old 25-08-19, 08:32 AM
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Yes the QVC was black,

From 1903 the cap badges were on sliders.
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  #42  
Old 25-08-19, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trav View Post
Hello there,

My first post I know I'm bumping an old thread but it made sense to post within it.

I have a few cap badges given to me by my Uncle who served (post WWII), plus my own (3 Queens) and I thought it would be nice to try and obtain one from my Grandfather's regiment too. He served in the 2nd Royal Irish Rifles 1911 - 1919.

So what have I here, it looks a little different from those posted so far. Any opinions greatly apppreciated.

Thanks in advance

(Sorry, I did rotate the photos before posting, honest!)

Hi Trav & welcome.

Alan is right in his replies. For further info the badge you have posted is pattern number 4633 which was 'sealed" for wear on the Field Service Cap (sometimes colloquially called "side cap") on 29/March/1898. Sealing means that a master pattern, to which all production and items in wear were to conform to, was physically produced, signed and copies put in place to control manufacture, issue and unit inspections. This was replaced by a similar item, pattern 4633A , which was sealed 07/Jan /1902 with a Tudor crown.

In 1903 pattern 5849 was sealed (30/March/1903) and this was in turn replaced with a white metal version pattern 7330 sealed 07/Feb/1913.

Your ancestor is unlikely to have been issued the badge you show and in theory would have been issued a blackened brass badge in 1911 to have been replaced by the white metal version sometime after 1913. Both with sliders. It was practice in the British Army to replace old patterns with new only when stocks of the old had run out and old and new patterns were often worn side by side depending not just on the availability and the scale of issue/re-issue but also the attitude that the unit had to "uniformity"

Below from left to right patterns 4633, 4633a, 5849 7330. Not to scale the first two are approx 42mm in height, the later ones approx. 50mm in height.

John
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File Type: jpg rir fsc.jpg (47.2 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg RIR KC FSC cap badge.jpg (53.6 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg df.jpg (63.2 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg 7E7F_1.JPG (26.4 KB, 18 views)
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  #43  
Old 26-08-19, 11:49 AM
Trav Trav is offline
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That's a great reply and assists a lot too. Thanks to everyone who's chipped in 👍 Why were badges blackened? I would assume for some tactical reason, or was there another reason?

Looks like I'll have to keep searching to be exact, but I do like the one I own. I don't think my Gf left anything from that time other than his discharge certificates, which show at that time he was discharged from the R.Ulster Rifles as the RIR had been rebadged. Still, it was the RIR he joined and served under so that, for now, remains the priority. Has anyone been to the museum in Belfast and seen what's on display there?
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  #44  
Old 26-08-19, 02:11 PM
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The lovely Edwardian long slider example is particularly pleasing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
A couple of examples

Both BB - one long slider and one hairpin.
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  #45  
Old 27-08-19, 08:04 AM
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As a general observation Rifle Regiments traditionally wore black buttons and many, but not all, had blackened cap badges. As ever there were exceptions and changes over time.

Tim
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