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  #1  
Old 11-04-08, 01:43 PM
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Faugh-A-Ballagh Faugh-A-Ballagh is offline
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Post 1902-13 RIR CAP BADGE

I picked this one up from one of the more reputable dealers on ebay this week. Haven't seen one from this vintage before close up. I know they were blackened pre-ww1, but when this practise stopped, I'm not too sure. To me it looks pretty good. What's the general opinion

John
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  #2  
Old 11-04-08, 02:59 PM
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John.

I was led to believe that the 1901-13 ones were blackened brass rather than blackened w/m. The shape of slider being bent back on itself is a new one on me as well for the RIR. You do get it on badges prone to breaking such as the Loyal regt. Is this how it was made or did the wearer bend it that way? Certainly a nice old one and much better quality than some of the later WW2 ones.

I should add that it has been said that the 2nd Bn continued to wear the blackened brass ones beyond 1913 but I don't have documentary proof of this. A RIR specialist might be able to confirm it.

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 11-04-08 at 03:06 PM.
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  #3  
Old 11-04-08, 03:28 PM
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hi john .

my RIR is WM behind the rest of blackned too and the slider is exactly the same as yours . it come from my grand father collection who received them during WW1 by soldiers..

for me is good (but a wasn't a expert). the blackned is very delicate on this badge ..

below my exemple
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  #4  
Old 11-04-08, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faugh-A-Ballagh View Post
I picked this one up from one of the more reputable dealers on ebay this week. Haven't seen one from this vintage before close up. I know they were blackened pre-ww1, but when this practise stopped, I'm not too sure. To me it looks pretty good. What's the general opinion

John
John,

I saw that one for sale too, IMO it's fine and an earlyish one as the scroll ends adjoining to the harp are longer (like the pre'08 blacked ones) as opposed to those found to the ww2 issue FN varieties. The slider being bent back on itself (like a Loyal North Lancs) is fine I have two with such a slider (one being very thin and the other a lot like yours) IMO it comes from a certain manufacturer/manufacturers and is not uncommon amoug RIR badges and a good pointer to look for when after a genuine one.

As for being blacked I don't belive yours is/was if you look at the inside face of the slider which you can see between the harp and start of the harp strings the slider is clearly brass, it would have been nearly impossible to polish there and as sliders were attached before badges were blackened this would resultingly be blacked if this was the case. I think the colour of you badge is just down to the way it has aged/been treated.

RIR badges were not blackened after they changed to WM in 1913.

Jeanpit your badge just has some good old tarnished much in the recesses which goes back giving the badge a lovely contrast but it was never blackened Was it from your grandfathers collection? If it was it could be a shout for the badges with the doubled over sliders being some of the earliest WM ones.

Cheers,

Luke
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  #5  
Old 11-04-08, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy McGinty View Post
John,

RIR badges were not blackened after they changed to WM in 1913.

Jeanpit your badge just has some good old tarnished much in the recesses which goes back giving the badge a lovely contrast but it was never blackened Was it from your grandfathers collection? If it was it could be a shout for the badges with the doubled over sliders being some of the earliest WM ones.

Cheers,

Luke
yes the badge is from my grand father collection, i hope that is genuine WW1 !!! if it was not a genuine, it was a great disappointment for me
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  #6  
Old 11-04-08, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanpit-frenchy View Post
yes the badge is from my grand father collection, i hope that is genuine WW1 !!! if it was not a genuine, it was a great disappointment for me
Jeanpit it is very much a genuine badge (and a nice one at that, I'd love to have it my collection) I do hope I didn't get you worried there mon amie!

I think there's a good chance that the badges with the doubled over sliders are early WM examples of the badge. Or at least there were manufacturing them from an early date

Cheers,

Luke
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  #7  
Old 11-04-08, 08:19 PM
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....ouf, i was afraid
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  #8  
Old 11-04-08, 10:16 PM
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N'ayez pas peur Jeanpit, la mienne est exactement la même que la vôtre.
Wilf.
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  #9  
Old 15-06-08, 04:56 PM
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If it was the one that came with the shoulder title, yes, I tried that one, but was outbid every time. Gave up after about thre attempts. Never even made it to the high bidder stage, annoying as I'd been watching it for about a week. Disappointed at the time, relieved now that I didn't get it.
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  #10  
Old 11-02-10, 01:29 PM
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Default RIR / RUR - Enlightenment

Something which I have learned this week, which I can't believe I have never noticed before. I certainly don't think I've ever seen it on a thread, and a very simple one too. Courtesy of an acquaintance who knows more about the Rifles than anyone else I know off.

For many years I assumed that there was no difference between Kings Crown white metal Royal Irish Rifles and Royal Ulster Rifles OR's cap badges.

What I learned is the difference is in the crowns.

The Royal Irish Rifles having a smaller crown than the later Royal Ulster Rifles.

My recent acquisition - courtesy of Kiwisapper has the smaller crown.

My other pair have the slightly larger crown. I thought that the one with the darker metal and hair-pin slider was an early example, but it turns out not to be the case. So after a long time of looking at the scroll ends, and not much else, I feel rather enlightened! It might make identification of fake blackened brass ones that bit easier.

John
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  #11  
Old 11-02-10, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faugh-A-Ballagh View Post
Something which I have learned this week, which I can't believe I have never noticed before. I certainly don't think I've ever seen it on a thread, and a very simple one too. Courtesy of an acquaintance who knows more about the Rifles than anyone else I know off.

For many years I assumed that there was no difference between Kings Crown white metal Royal Irish Rifles and Royal Ulster Rifles OR's cap badges.

What I learned is the difference is in the crowns.

The Royal Irish Rifles having a smaller crown than the later Royal Ulster Rifles.

My recent acquisition - courtesy of Kiwisapper has the smaller crown.

My other pair have the slightly larger crown. I thought that the one with the darker metal and hair-pin slider was an early example, but it turns out not to be the case. So after a long time of looking at the scroll ends, and not much else, I feel rather enlightened! It might make identification of fake blackened brass ones that bit easier.

John
John,
although I may be wrong, I think the crowns (size and shape) may just be down to differing manufacturers? I do not have my badges with me for reference and I do not claim to be an expert on the "Rifles" (RIR/RUR) however I am sure that I have a Lambourne marked badge (WW1 era) that has a large crown.

A romatic theory I feel? I've heard the same one about the Royal Fusiliers and the 1-4th Londons, the later supposing to have a smaller crown, which I feel is pure fantasy?

In 1920 when "Irish" in the title became "Ulster" I would have thought that the only change would have been "I" to "R" in titles or a replacing/changing of wording? I cannot honestly see that cap badges were changed?

My opinion only and as always I am open to correction!

Andy
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  #12  
Old 11-02-10, 04:23 PM
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I agree with Andy here. The WW1 (RIRifles) badges may have differed in size to later RURifles but this was a maker's variation only rather than a conscious decision to change any sealed pattern.
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  #13  
Old 12-02-10, 01:49 AM
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I too agree with Andy and Alan

There are several die variations of the 1913 pattern O/R badge. The main variations are in crown (width and arch angle) and scroll. One also finds minor differences in Maid and where the wings join the sound box.

The WM version (sealed pattern number 7330) was sealed in 1913 and I can find no reference of it being replaced until sealed pattern number 16420, (the WM St Edwards crown version) in 1954. I can find no reference of a re-sealing (of the other ranks forage cap badge) on the change of regimental title.

As to whether larger crowns are indicative of earlier (i.e. pre 1922 examples) I do not believe they are (at least not exclusively).

I have several examples of the 1913 pattern and the BB 1902 pattern. I do not want to give the fakers too much info by giving the exact measurements, but here is a summary of the ratio of the crown max width to badge max width.

In this table the smaller the ratio the bigger the crown is (in width), these crowns typically have a larger arch making them look bigger in height also. Hopefully it is clear (the tabbing seems to change from composing to posting).

1902 TC with loops 1.72:1
1902 TC Slider 1.73:1
1902 TC Slider different die to above 1.85:1

1913 TC Wide Crown arch, large crown, long scroll (hairpin slider) 1.64:1
1913 TC Wide Crown arch, flat squat type crown (hairpin slider) 1.82:1
1913 TC Flatter Crown, Visibly smaller ( same die as next one) 1.76:1
1913 TC Flatter Crown, slider J.R. Gaunt London (50’s mark) 1.76:1
TC Flatter Crown, slider marked FN B'HAM 1940’s 1.84:1
WW2 Plastic Economy Version sealed 1943. Plastic Fashions, 1.74:1

From this I conclude,
• small crown versions of the 1902 BB exist (smaller that the biggest
WM 1913 version I have seen) ,
• larger crowns versions of the 1913 pattern can be found into the
1940’s .

Not a definitive arguement I know but illustrative none the less.


John

Last edited by John Mulcahy; 12-02-10 at 01:56 AM. Reason: added comments
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  #14  
Old 12-02-10, 02:22 AM
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Faugh-A-Ballagh Faugh-A-Ballagh is offline
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Ok. I'll have to take all that on the chin. Don't think I can come up with anything which will come close to John's input there! Must be the excitement of a Marlow's auction day and also getting a nice badge in the post ! Nothing like a wee bit of controversy!
Thanks all the same folks. Now even more enkightened!

John
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  #15  
Old 12-02-10, 02:31 AM
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In the absence of hard and fast data on things like this generalisations are always open to refute.

But we are all learning all the time and each piece of the puzzles helps build a fuller picture.
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