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  #151  
Old 15-02-20, 09:25 AM
Edyc7 Edyc7 is online now
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Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
The following picture is taken from page 200 of the excellent book "The Kiwi Scorpions" by Brendon O'Carroll, it shows 2 first pattern LRDG shoulder titles sitting on top of the owners pay book. (Courtesy of the Shepherd collection)

Attachment 218954

Trooper B. F. Shepherd and GunnerE. C. Lofty

Attachment 218955
Itís interesting to note on the same Pg.200 THE KIWI SCORPIONS, Brendan comments ďThe weave of the lettering was often crude or uneven.Ē Also of interest is the LRDG title on Pg.193 with the downward spike at the end of the ďG.Ē

I would like to highlight the change in color in the lettering of the title in question (post#112), from the back being bright red to the front a pinkish hue. This fading is something thatís often encountered in LRDG titles.

See attached photo.
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File Type: jpg CC5B4014-E444-4F93-9033-3E9A9339C06D.jpg (43.8 KB, 21 views)
  #152  
Old 15-02-20, 10:11 PM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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It is worth considering the rarity and the importance of the first pattern LRDG shoulder titles.
The change from LRP to LRDG took place in December 1940, and the SAS were not formed until the 1st July 1941, which means the first pattern LRDG shoulder title is truly the first official issue of British Special forces insignia of WW2.

The following picture was taken in 1941, it shows the first pattern LRDG shoulder title being worn and a New Zealand Onward cap badge.

Shoulder title and Onward badge 5 Oct 1941.JPG

Last edited by atillathenunns; 15-02-20 at 11:04 PM.
  #153  
Old 15-02-20, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edyc7 View Post
Itís interesting to note on the same Pg.200 THE KIWI SCORPIONS, Brendan comments ďThe weave of the lettering was often crude or uneven.Ē Also of interest is the LRDG title on Pg.193 with the downward spike at the end of the ďG."
The LRDG title on Pg.193 with the downward spike at the end of the ďG.Ē has all it letters in what I can only best describe as a ďBookman Old StyleĒ font.

I have the following picture dated 1943 showing it being worn, but I think it is likely to have been first issued in 1942.

16 Aug 1943 Lieutenant J M Sutherland.jpg
  #154  
Old 15-02-20, 11:59 PM
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Edy, I find it quite amusing, given that I donít own any LRDG shoulder titles, just how many genuine variations of shoulder titles we have been able to identify between us.
I am not sure, but happy to be corrected, we might have been the first on this forum to identify what the first pattern LRDG shoulder title actually looks like.
Just imagine what we could achieve if everybody contributed their genuine pieces of the LRDG puzzle.

Here is another genuine LRDG variation, the photo has a handwritten date of 1942 on the front.
As can be seen this variation has the footings on the R and the D, but has no downward spike at the end of the ďG.Ē

Shoulder title 1942.jpg
  #155  
Old 16-02-20, 12:16 AM
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Being able to identify them from the period photos or from genuine provenance is one thing but identifying as genuine because you think they may be is not and never will be the same.
  #156  
Old 16-02-20, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
Edy, I find it quite amusing, given that I donít own any LRDG shoulder titles, just how many genuine variations of shoulder titles we have been able to identify between us.
I am not sure, but happy to be corrected, we might have been the first on this forum to identify what the first pattern LRDG shoulder title actually looks like.
Just imagine what we could achieve if everybody contributed their genuine pieces of the LRDG puzzle.

Here is another genuine LRDG variation, the photo has a handwritten date of 1942 on the front.
As can be seen this variation has the footings on the R and the D, but has no downward spike at the end of the ďG.Ē

Attachment 219020
Thanks for posting all these photos and giving us a window into this seldom seen and secretive world of Special Forces collecting.

Edy
  #157  
Old 17-02-20, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by lifeochil View Post
Being able to identify them from the period photos or from genuine provenance is one thing but identifying as genuine because you think they may be is not and never will be the same.
Being able to identify them from the period photos and genuine provenance is everything.

I have supplied 3 genuine variations that are very similar but are not a match to the Swende shoulder title, this does not prove it is fake, it just means that so far it hasnít matched up to a known original.

Just out of curiosity, do you personally own any LRDG badges?
  #158  
Old 17-02-20, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Edyc7 View Post
Thanks for posting all these photos and giving us a window into this seldom seen and secretive world of Special Forces collecting.

Edy
It is indeed a very secretive world of Special Forces collecting, and it really shouldn't be.
  #159  
Old 17-02-20, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
Being able to identify them from the period photos and genuine provenance is everything.
Maybe these badges but certainly not all badges, cloth or para wings. It would be easier if it were possible but it's not.

One day I will give evidence of a number of badges and wings that have not been ID by photos or provenance but they are genuine and I will explain in detail why they are.
  #160  
Old 17-02-20, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
It is indeed a very secretive world of Special Forces collecting, and it really shouldn't be.
The utopian world of special forces collecting. It's off the subject of the thread but you should know that some collectors or researchers put a bigger effort into it than others. So some general questions for you or anyone on the forum.
Why would someone who knows something that the majority doesn't know tell the majority if he (or she) has put such an effort into finding the information in the first place?
In some cases, this may have taken many years to find the information so why would that person then decide to tell the rest of the world? Let's not forget there are unscrupulous players everywhere, including forums. Why would someone part with that information?
Another question for you. Do you think that a lot of collectors get information overload?
  #161  
Old 17-02-20, 12:36 PM
Edyc7 Edyc7 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
Being able to identify them from the period photos and genuine provenance is everything.

I have supplied 3 genuine variations that are very similar but are not a match to the Swende shoulder title, this does not prove it is fake, it just means that so far it hasnít matched up to a known original.

Just out of curiosity, do you personally own any LRDG badges?
All these are photos of LRDG titles in the public domain and the point that I want to make is that they are all different but not dissimilar.
  #162  
Old 17-02-20, 10:13 PM
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You've contradicted yourself because dissimilar means different.

"...the point that I want to make is that they are all different but not dissimilar."

Translation.
"...the point that I want to make is that they are all different but not different."

  #163  
Old 18-02-20, 07:53 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeochil View Post
The utopian world of special forces collecting. It's off the subject of the thread but you should know that some collectors or researchers put a bigger effort into it than others. So some general questions for you or anyone on the forum.
Why would someone who knows something that the majority doesn't know tell the majority if he (or she) has put such an effort into finding the information in the first place?
In some cases, this may have taken many years to find the information so why would that person then decide to tell the rest of the world? Let's not forget there are unscrupulous players everywhere, including forums. Why would someone part with that information?
Another question for you. Do you think that a lot of collectors get information overload?
The forum is all about sharing information, and it doesnít get any better than cracking the mysteries of the LRP/LRDG badges.
If people donít want to share, thatís fine too.

As for me, I havenít played all my cards yet, and I donít think Edy has either, I think Slinky Cat, Frank Kelly and Luke H are all bluffing and have no genuine LRDG badges to support their claims.
  #164  
Old 18-02-20, 08:04 AM
Steve Conway Steve Conway is offline
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I'm not sure if you are saying this "tongue in cheek" but if not I think Edy has the correct usage on this, the Cambridge Dictionary definition is below but the example from it shows it more clearly in the use that Edy made of it:

Meaning of dissimilar in English

dissimilar
adjective
UK /ˌdɪsˈsɪm.ɪ.lər/ US /ˌdɪsˈsɪm.ə.lɚ/

different:
The new house is not dissimilar (= is similar) to our old one, except that it's slightly bigger.

Edy said "not dissimilar" which means =is similar as above, but which does not mean the same as. It appears to me he was saying they are different but have similarities.
  #165  
Old 18-02-20, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
The forum is all about sharing information, and it doesnít get any better than cracking the mysteries of the LRP/LRDG badges.
If people donít want to share, thatís fine too.

As for me, I havenít played all my cards yet, and I donít think Edy has either, I think Slinky Cat, Frank Kelly and Luke H are all bluffing and have no genuine LRDG badges to support their claims.
Like me they probably donít, but then neither do the vast majority of LRDG collectors who think they do either.
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