1st CACR Badge / Pin back

[BCONLEY]

I just received this badge, part of a large collection ww2 from an elderly gentleman in Belgium. I am fairly certain it is original as the remainder of the collection is 100% spot on, but the pin back and the finish I have never seen on this unit's badge. The pin is a brooch pin type and the finish almost appears gilt to the eye in normal light. Has anyone seen one similar to this? Any opinions welcome.

[GregN]

You normally look to the 0 for the quick decision on these but I don't like the M! Even for such a small group of guys there are so many variations. It looks professionally done but......? I'm on the fence with this one. As long as you didn't sell a kidney to get it, it's a filler until a 100% correct one comes along.

Greg

[WJ Miller]

It's a cast reproduction. A very good casting, scary good... and would easily fool even the advanced collector.

This exact badge has been discussed here before. It appears to have a had a cleaning since I last saw it.

Can you determine what specifically it is made of? Putting a few stories I have heard over the years I have a reasonable suspicion that this it is a very old jewelers copy. I may know of the whereabouts of a matching badge (described but not seen first hand).

Greg correctly mentions the lack/loss of detail (rounded off lettering), instead of the crisp lettering you'd expect. The badge is also slightly elongated/narrower that genuine. There are some stark differences in detail on the back, the pin back being only one obvious one. all defects from the casting process.

Is the badge heavy/solid feeling or lightweight?

[BCONLEY]

It is not a light weight badge, for its size I would say it is about average for a brass badge. I believe it is a form of gilt over brass. I agree that it has some age. Exact measurements are 43 mm high , the banner is 36 mm wide. You do not usually see reproductions in single creations, I am curious whether this was produced during the war or post, and exactly what for. Goes in the " yet to be determined box".

[BCONLEY]

I picked up Chris Brooker's new reference books yesterday and he describes 3 types of badges to 1CAPC. The 3rd type listed is Officer variants, of which there are two. The first is listed as a Cap Badge: Brown OSD, Die cast semi hollow reverse with 1/2 round copper wire lugs (Brooker 148-11-214), not maker marked. The second type of officers badge he describes as a Beret badge: Gilt, die cast semi hollow reverse, lugs replaced with a pin fastener, (Brooker 148-11-212) Not maker marked. He also goes on in his narrative to describe the type 3 officers badges as " the kangaroo with thick body, forward pointing face and short ears, the grassy mound between the tail and body of the Kangaroo is straight. The figure O in ARMATOS is oval in shape. Overall height 43 mm". I firmly believe now that this is the "Beret badge" described by Mr Brooker as it is exactly as described including measurement .

[WJ Miller]

Mr. Brooker is a very nice man and indeed a very knowledgeable collector whose contributions to the hobby are large and many. However, he is not infallible.

And he and I will have to agree to disagree. From my experience with veterans of the regiment, estate collections and research I believe there are only two legitimate regimentally issued cap badges, both made by Gaunt. One is fully Die Struck, gilt coated brass. The other is Die cast, semi hollow back Bronze. Both lugged, both exceptionally well made in detail and finish. Photos of each type are in ample supply on this forum. Officers, for whatever reason did not like the bronze badges and opted to wear the Brass badges on both battledress and later on Service Dress (officer SD photo attached is one of several I have, I also have the SD uniform of the 2 i/c and it has brass insignia all around).

I don't even understand Brookers description/speculation of an officer's 'beret' badge. What makes a "pin back" a beret badge, when all ranks comfortably wore the lugged version on their berets? BEFORE the Regiment was disbanded in June of 1945 there would have been no need to make additional brass/gilt badges for everyday wear as plenty were available in QM Stores. Theses badges were only issued between February 1945 and June 1945. That is a very short time to see so many varieties don't you think? This was a busy, hard-fighting unit. Where and when did the men have time to be so creative and fashion focused?

Your badge, is neither of that type I am describing. I don't know what your badge is. My belief is that it is older, but unlikely wartime and a very good cast from a legitimate badge. Beyond that I won't publicly speculate on it's origin, use or wear as frankly there is already too much nonsense around the insignia of this regiment and I won't add to it.

I have seen for sale twice now, gilt coated officers badges with pin backs (they might have been the same badge, I can't recall). However, these were genuinely the Gaunt die cast bronze badge, with all the same crispness and features of the regular Bronze badge, except the gilt coating and the pin back, not the lugs. Anomallies I cannot account for. I have also seen a single left facing collar badge with a pin back in the possession of a daughter of a former officer. My first reaction when I see a pin back on Canadian SWW insignia is to think "sweetheart" or broken/repaired badge...

I understand that one-off, privately commissioned badges MAY and DO exist (indeed there were some wire bullion badges made late/postwar by an officer). Some legitimate badges MAY and indeed HAVE BEEN altered in the postwar era (Brooker has a fine example of a Chrome coated Kangaroo cap badge, 'Tanker Mike' here on the forum has a very nice Bronze badge with screwposts on the back). But to describe them as "Regimental Issue" is wrong and I think irresponsible, especially without solid provenance.

[Tanker Mike]

My screw post "Officers?" kangaroo.

[mad4thcef]

Originally Posted by WJ Miller

Mr. Brooker is a very nice man and indeed a very knowledgeable collector whose contributions to the hobby are large and many. However, he is not infallible.

And he and I will have to agree to disagree. From my experience with veterans of the regiment, estate collections and research I believe there are only two legitimate regimentally issued cap badges, both made by Gaunt. One is fully Die Struck, gilt coated brass. The other is Die cast, semi hollow back Bronze. Both lugged, both exceptionally well made in detail and finish. Photos of each type are in ample supply on this forum. Officers, for whatever reason did not like the bronze badges and opted to wear the Brass badges on both battledress and later on Service Dress (officer SD photo attached is one of several I have, I also have the SD uniform of the 2 i/c and it has brass insignia all around).

I don't even understand Brookers description/speculation of an officer's 'beret' badge. What makes a "pin back" a beret badge, when all ranks comfortably wore the lugged version on their berets? BEFORE the Regiment was disbanded in June of 1945 there would have been no need to make additional brass/gilt badges for everyday wear as plenty were available in QM Stores. Theses badges were only issued between February 1945 and June 1945. That is a very short time to see so many varieties don't you think? This was a busy, hard-fighting unit. Where and when did the men have time to be so creative and fashion focused?

Your badge, is neither of that type I am describing. I don't know what your badge is. My belief is that it is older, but unlikely wartime and a very good cast from a legitimate badge. Beyond that I won't publicly speculate on it's origin, use or wear as frankly there is already too much nonsense around the insignia of this regiment and I won't add to it.

I have seen for sale twice now, gilt coated officers badges with pin backs (they might have been the same badge, I can't recall). However, these were genuinely the Gaunt die cast bronze badge, with all the same crispness and features of the regular Bronze badge, except the gilt coating and the pin back, not the lugs. Anomallies I cannot account for. I have also seen a single left facing collar badge with a pin back in the possession of a daughter of a former officer. My first reaction when I see a pin back on Canadian SWW insignia is to think "sweetheart" or broken/repaired badge...

I understand that one-off, privately commissioned badges MAY and DO exist (indeed there were some wire bullion badges made late/postwar by an officer). Some legitimate badges MAY and indeed HAVE BEEN altered in the postwar era (Brooker has a fine example of a Chrome coated Kangaroo cap badge, 'Tanker Mike' here on the forum has a very nice Bronze badge with screwposts on the back). But to describe them as "Regimental Issue" is wrong and I think irresponsible, especially without solid provenance.

Well put!

The saga with this badge and a few others will last for all eternity unfortunately.

Cheers
Rob

[Michael Reintjes]

What Bill said...

[BCONLEY]

I would like to thank the members here for the replies to my original posts re this badge. As I have just listed the item on EBAY for sale ( I buy and sell militaria to finance my specific badge collecting interests) I thought I might bring this to your attention prior to any comments being made and give you my reasons for listing it the way that I have. My description of the badge verbatim follows;

[B]This Lot: Before bidding on this badge please read carefully this description.

This badge appears to be made from brass with a gilt coating, does not bend easily, measures aprox 43 mm tall has a pin fastener and was likely cast from a mold of an original badge (type 1 as indicated by Brooker). I purchased this badge as part of a large collection recently, and when it arrived it was very grimy, obviously older, but I was most surprised to see the fact that it was a cast badge with a pin back. The casting is not as well defined as an original type 1 OR's badge though it does have the "Oval O" , etc, of an original badge. Most known officers badges to this unit (Brooker 148-11-214) have lugs, smooth finish, OSD. According to Chris Brooker's reference (Brooker's Badges of The Canadian Army) this composition (Gilt with a pin back) is indicative of the type 3 officers "BERET" badge (Brooker 148-11-212), however having inquired of other collectors who are certainly more versed in this regiments badges than I, the consensus is that this is a "weird harold", i.e, an unusual "one of" badge that does not fit into the category of known fakes and reproductions that have flooded the market in recent years and was unlikely to have been created or worn during the period this unit was operational. I would love to say this is an original Officers badge worn during the war, however I cannot do that with 100% certainty. I am comfortable stating that this was likely a "one of" badge produced by a jeweler, likely post 1945 for an unknown reason.

That said should I be wrong, someone could be in for a real treat. Good luck.[/B]

I feel that it is a honest portrayal of the badge as I wanted to insure that anyone bidding on it understood the questions associated. I have listed it under original item WW2, with what I believe to be appropriate caveats, as to list it as a reproduction would be a waste of time and money. Having the reference say one thing and the collecting community say another was illuminating, if not depressing. Hopefully my listing adequately address's the issues and concerns noted by this forum.

Jim Purdy

[WJ Miller]

Jim,

That's a very fair and accurate description of this badge and I commend you for being that thorough and careful with the listing. Hopefully, it attracts some serious bids.

I would like to personally address your concerns about the badge and perhaps relieve any 'depression'. I've recently been in contact with Chris Brooker and he was good enough to share a photo of the back of what he refers to as the type 2 officer, (gilt/pinback). Attached. you will see in comparison to yours they are different. His badge is the same semi-hollow die cast (all the same casting artifacts) OSD badge from Gaunt, but with a gilt coating.

Not the same, but still you have a very unique and interesting (at least to me!) badge. One day I would like to know the true origin of it.

As I have mentioned before, there is a "story" about some members of the Regiment having cast copies made by a Jeweler, though I know of no veterans currently that have an example, I believe that the reason was to create a sweetheart badge for girlfriends. I would like to stress that this is a "story" and I have no hard evidence to prove or disprove this. Is this what your badge is? I have no idea and would not be at all comfortable putting that label on this item. Still, I think an interesting badge.

Good luck with your auction.

[WJ Miller]

Side by side comparison photos. Left to Right.

1. OSD Bronze die cast badge, lugs.
2. OSD badge with gilt coating and a pin back replacing lugs.
3. Jim's Belgian badge (suspected jeweler's cast copy of OR's badge)
4. Regular Brass Other Rank's Badge.

(I'm using a photo of Jim's "Odd" badge that I received via the original seller bck in 2012.)

[WJ Miller]

Also courtesy Mr. Brooker. The back of the Chromed pinback badge (postwar)

This is an OR's brass badge that has been chromed.

[BCONLEY]

Thank you Bill, my depression is abating and I appreciate the sharing of the info/pictures. Much appreciated.

Jim