Indian Badge Identification

[Postwarden]

Any suggestions on these please, believed to be Indian from their source.

Thanks.

Postwarden

[Lampwick]

The one on the right is part of a 3rd Queen Alexandra's Own Gurkha badge I believe.

[Mike Jackson]

Bottom left is a variant on the Bombay, Baroda and Central India Railway Volunteer Rifles - less title scroll (RHW Cox 2686A)
Mike

[Gurkha]

As lampwick said top right is 3rd Gurkha Rifles O/R's 'Hat felt Gurkha' badge worn 1920-47.

Regards Steve

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by Gurkha

As lampwick said top right is 3rd Gurkha Rifles O/R's 'Hat felt Gurkha' badge worn 1920-47.

Regards Steve

A bit off topic, but I have a question. Why until 1947 as it was only in 1950 that India became a republic and dropped all things royal?

[Gurkha]

India gained her Independence at Midnight 14/15 August 1947. British officers stayed on to help the transition for up to a couple of years after.

Regards

Steve

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by Gurkha

India gained her Independence at Midnight 14/15 August 1947. British officers stayed on to help the transition for up to a couple of years after.

Regards

Steve

Yes, that is all true, but this is about the fact that India (and Pakistan) stayed in the Commonwealth and that royalty still was royalty. And that the titles like "6th Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers (Watson's Horse)" were still used. And King's crows were still on badges. Not only for officers detached to the new Indian army, but for all. All until India became a republic in 1950 (Pakistan in 1956) and this all changed.

The above all as I see it (please correct me if I am wrong, because that is why I started this subject). And when that is true it is incorrect to date such a badge as -1947. Because it would be in use until 1950. (Republic day is on 26 January 1950 and it is much more important as a national day then 15 August).

Same for the general remark often seen: "This is post independence" (suggesting 1947). Because in reality it is often is post January 1950.

[Gurkha]

Valid point,
but my understanding commonwealth or no is that from that date no more of the raj badges were authorised to be made. I have a 4th GR OR's from a ex Brit officer who stayed with them till 50, He kept it as, on the 15th Aug a number of OR's removed the POW feathers from their cap badges. Remember we were regarded as occupiers and they had gained their freedom so they were keen to get rid of 'Royal' symbols. I think this has just become accepted date. I will ask Ashook Nath next time we converse.

Steve

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by Gurkha

Valid point,
but my understanding commonwealth or no is that from that date no more of the raj badges were authorised to be made. I have a 4th GR OR's from a ex Brit officer who stayed with them till 50, He kept it as, on the 15th Aug a number of OR's removed the POW feathers from their cap badges. Remember we were regarded as occupiers and they had gained their freedom so they were keen to get rid of 'Royal' symbols. I think this has just become accepted date. I will ask Ashook Nath next time we converse.

Steve

Yes please. I would value it very much when you can talk to somebody that can shed some light on this.

The regiments.org website e.g. says that The Royal Garhwal Rifles were retitled The Garhwal rifles in 1950 ad so on.

But the same source also says that The Governor General's Bodyguard was split onto both The President's Bodyguard regiments in 1947. But there was not any president. King George VI was still monarch. Mountbatten was GG of India and M.A. Jinnah the first GG of Pakistan.

Riddles!

[Wmr-RHB]

And as an addition, this is what Wikipedia sas about The Governor General's Bodyguard:

In 1947, the Partition of India saw the country of Pakistan established and Muslim personnel from the regiment were transferred to the Pakistani Army to form the Governor General's Bodyguard, Pakistan. The rest of the regiment remained with the Indian Army as the President's Bodyguard upon India proclaiming itself a republic in 1950.

There is in fact no mentioning of the correct title of the Indian part, but it suggests GGBG 1947-1950.

And Wikipedia again:

1946 Governor General's Bodyguard

1947 After independence, the unit got split between Governor General's Body Guard, India & Governor General's Body Guard, Pakistan.

1950 The President's Body Guard, India. In Pakistan the title remained GGBG till 1956.

IMHO this confirms that titles where not changed upon independence. Thus why would badges be changed?

[peter monahan]

INDEPENDENCE vs REPUBLIC

India became independent from England in 1947 and then in 1950 became a republic, though still remaining in the Commonwealth of Nations.

Hence, it was in 1950 that His Majesty ceased to be head of state for India. At that time the emblem of the "Lions of Ashoka" - three lions joined through the bodies with heads facing left, center and right - became the emblem of state and began to replace the King's Crown.

However, many Indian Army units remain very proud of their lineage, stretching back into the mid 1800s, and in some cases have continued to use the crown, various other devices and regimental names which date back to the Imperial period. This seems to me to be particularly true for the cavalry [armoured] regiments. I gather, for example, that "Skinner's Horse" still displays WWII vintage caricatures of British officers in its officers' mess and certainly many of the regimental titles reflect that heritage.

Similarly, Pakistan became a Republic in 1956, replacing Her Majesty the Queen with a President as head of state. She is also a member of the Commonwealth, though has been suspended twice for actions deemed to be unacceptable by the other members - military coups and suspensions of human rights, I believe. However, the 'loss' of the monarch likewise led to the cessation of the crown as a national symbol. to be replaced by a crescent moon in most uses.

Hope this clears things up a bit. Be aware that military unts also change titles for a variety of reasons having little to do with who heads the state but often to do with amalgamations or a desire to either commemorate or hide past events.

Peter

[peter monahan]

BADGE ID

The bear badge is that of The Dehra Dun Contingent, a unit of the Auxiliary Force India [post 1922]. The bird with spread wings I think is the embl;em of one of the princely ststes but can't recall which one at the moment.

The 3rd Gurkahas badge has been IDed already.

I suspect the thistle and St. Andrews cross is not military at all. It certsinly isn't Indian unless it came from a private school cadet corps or some such quasi-military group. Possibl a pipe band, but more likely to be Scottish, Cdn, Aussie or NZ than Indian IMHO.

Peter

[pinfrin]

[1] ARMY
John Gaylor ( page 275, Sons of John Company )
notes that the JAT Regiment continued to wear the
crown on their cap badges till 1955.

Made some queries from the Jat's Colonel Commandant.
He told me some years ago that the design change
approval was held up in the chain for vague / bureaucratic
reasons although the Centre did forward their pattern ideas.
Jats anyhow as a community, do not take to change kindly
so wouldn't have pushed the case too hard.

[2] NAVY
The IN had 6 officers who were ' Commanded ' by
the Queen in 1953 to wear the Coronation Medal.
Have the 'parchment' for one Lt Cdr. The bureaucracy
objected but the IN had its way and the 6 were allowed
to wear the medal.

[Brigade Piron]

Originally Posted by peter monahan

Hence, it was in 1950 that His Majesty ceased to be head of state for India. At that time the emblem of the "Lions of Ashoka" - three lions joined through the bodies with heads facing left, center and right - became the emblem of state and began to replace the King's Crown.

I don't think that's necessarily correct though. There's also the intermediate "star" (not crown) types, and there are pictures of KC medical corps badges in use with the Indians in Korea until 1952-ish.

I'd be interested to see any Lion-of-Ashoka-badges that are attested in the early-mid 1950s though.

BP

[Peter R. Moore]

Originally Posted by peter monahan

BADGE ID

The bear badge is that of The Dehra Dun Contingent, a unit of the Auxiliary Force India [post 1922]. The bird with spread wings I think is the embl;em of one of the princely ststes but can't recall which one at the moment.

The 3rd Gurkahas badge has been IDed already.

I suspect the thistle and St. Andrews cross is not military at all. It certsinly isn't Indian unless it came from a private school cadet corps or some such quasi-military group. Possibl a pipe band, but more likely to be Scottish, Cdn, Aussie or NZ than Indian IMHO.

Peter

The "spread- eagle" is a left collar-badge of the the Jodhpur Lancers, Indian States Forces, which is now part of the 61st. Cavalry, Indian Army, a ceremonial horse-mounted unit with no combat role. The "thistle & St. Andrew's cross" is a collar-badge of the Bengal & North-Western Railway Volunteer Rifles, Auxiliary Force India.
Regards,
peter M.