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  #16  
Old 30-01-17, 07:04 PM
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'Ticker' Riley 'Ticker' Riley is offline
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Default Core Variants and Makers’ Variants

Hi JT

Many thanks indeed for taking time to explain the rationale behind your classification system in such a thorough and comprehensive way. I can certainly appreciate everything you say about defining particular characteristics, and then using these to arrange badges into your ‘core variants’. All I can say is that, regarding my own work, the principal consideration for me are makers’ variants and distinguishing these.

To my mind no two manufacturers produced exactly the same Leicesters badge, even though these badges conform to the same overall ‘Design’, i.e. with a capital ‘D’, as laid down in the official Patterns. So yes, you are correct – I am trying to categorise these badges by each maker’s own interpretation of the Patterns, their own ‘design’, i.e. with a small ‘d’, by which I mean the distinctive artistic modelling which exists in the tigers, the grassy mound and the scroll lettering that you get in these, and which altogether may be described as ‘die characteristics’.

You make a pertinent observation in this regard, about the ability, or rather inability, to attribute each variant badge to a specific maker. It is also the case that one maker’s type may well display similar physical attributes to another’s, making them almost the same. I have found that there are a number of makers’ types for the Leicesters that I cannot attribute to a manufacturer, as some makers only ever seem to have made ORs’ badges and no maker-marked examples exist for these – or at least I haven’t yet found them! Other maker’s types are identifiable by manufacture: J. R. Gaunt & Son, Firmin & Sons (‘old’ & ‘new’ types), Bent & Parker, Ludski/Ludlow, Jennens & Co., Smith & Wight and Gladman & Norman (notwithstanding copies and fakes).

There are obviously different ways to note difference, and different badges to a regiment will undoubtedly be differenced by having different fixings, or being made of different metals, or having different finishes. There will also be differences in voiding, though in my mind non-voiding versus voiding can be very much a variable, sometimes dependent on maker, sometimes on period of production. For instance, I have examples of the Firmin & Sons ‘old’ type as bi-metal ORs’ badges, both with loops (lugs) and vertical shank (slider), as OSD with blades, and as S/G with loops (I think the ORs’ bi-metal with loops comes with voided and un-voided tail loops too, but I haven’t got them to hand at the moment). Presumably, therefore, under your ‘core variants’ system, if extended to include officers’ badges, each of these would be a separate ‘core variant’ (incidentally, I don’t think that officers’ badges have separate Pattern numbers, do they? I assume that these come under the same Pattern number as the relevant ORs’ bi-metal badges?)

I can definitely see value in this ‘core variant’ approach, but for my research, at present at least, I prefer to keep things together under a maker, such as the Firmin & Sons type badges I’ve just mentioned, rather than placing them into discrete categories based on characteristics they have in common with other manufacturers’ badges. Having said that, your broader categorisation very much has its merits, and I think Julian, to some extent, does use a system of physical attributes, though I do not know if he does so in exactly the same way as you do, nor do I know how Griff M-J defines and arranges the makers’ types/variants in his research. Perhaps I need to re-examine my work in the light of your methodology? In the meantime, I’d best stop there, as it seems my postings are distracting us from the original purpose of this thread, which was for you to get fellow members to contribute examples of QRWS badges!

Very best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”
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  #17  
Old 30-01-17, 07:24 PM
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Jelly Terror Jelly Terror is offline
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Martin,

Wonderful stuff, as always. Many thanks for talking the time to post. Always a pleasure to read your contributions.

All the best,

JT.
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  #18  
Old 20-09-18, 08:03 AM
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Default UPDATE

Just an update for anyone who has been following this project...

Since commencing the recording and cataloging of the other ranks' badges of the QRWS Regiment, newly 'discovered' variants necessitated the restructuring of the classification system I previously had in place. In effect this resulted in me producing a slightly more simplified system, which I hope brings into sharper focus the subtleties and differences of the numerous variants of this particular badge.

To date, sixteen different dies have been recorded, and whilst it has been possible to identify a number of these dies as being produced by specific manufacturers, many remain as yet unassigned.

For those wishing to reference variants, please now disregard the 'CV' prefix outlined in the opening post of this thread. Variants are now arranged simply as 'types' (Type 1, Type 2, Type 3, Type 4, Type 5 and Type 6) each populated by their own group of sub-variants, and all of which can now be viewed in the album linked below.

My aim has been to provide and exhaustive 'catalogue', covering every single die and variation. At the time of writing I am resonably confident that this may have been realised, but as we all know with badge collecting, never say 'never'.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...p?albumid=3521

Regards,

JT

PS - I might just add; for anyone wishing to view the album, a brief description of the cataloguing/number reference system is provided in the album description. I have had a couple of emails asking me to include this information. This is because the system has been amended since I submitted the OP above, and as such, the CV ref number criteria info in post #1 are now pretty much redundant and should therefore be more or less disregarded... but all now clarified in the album description

Last edited by Jelly Terror; 20-09-18 at 03:43 PM.
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  #19  
Old 20-09-18, 08:21 AM
Nozzer Nozzer is offline
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fascinating project JT

As you know I have tried something similar with the numerous variants of Norfolk Regiment, MGC and Hertfordshire Regiment. The amount of different variants to all three is quite surprising. I am sure the same can be said of any Regiment or Corps as you have demonstrated.

Keep up the good work!

N
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  #20  
Old 20-09-18, 08:41 AM
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Jelly Terror Jelly Terror is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzer View Post
fascinating project JT

As you know I have tried something similar with the numerous variants of Norfolk Regiment, MGC and Hertfordshire Regiment. The amount of different variants to all three is quite surprising. I am sure the same can be said of any Regiment or Corps as you have demonstrated.

Keep up the good work!

N
Hello Nozzer,

Thanks for your reply.

I was saying recently to Keith, that studying this pattern of badge for a long period of time has enabled me to see how different they actually all are. Before I began to look so closely, they all appeared to be very much the same. It is hard now to believe how the marked differences were virtually invisible to me before. I expect you may well have found the same with your chosen badges.

I hope you're continuing to catalogue your regiments... always fascinating viewing your albums and learning from your findings.

Cheers for now,

JT

Last edited by Jelly Terror; 20-09-18 at 02:56 PM.
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