AG wings

[phaethon]

Hi all,

So, I received this today. First at all is this AG wings original, looks good to my untrained eye anyway. If good then is it possible to determinate when these Air Gunner wings were produced? WW2 period or post war?

Also, for learning purposes, can someone with the knowledge, explain briefly what to look out to determine manufacturing period of the wings? At the moment I am going through tons of sellers sites to educate myself but I assume mainly it will comes with the time when handling them and building the knowledge. Just good to have some tips first!

Many thanks,

Timo

[Alanp]

Agree, some sort of guide to determining the age of these badges would be useful. Sometimes I just can't tell.

[David191]

First & foremost, I am no authority on wing collecting & although I have been at it for some time now, you just never stop learning in the fascinating world of wings. I am fairly confident when buying wings but we do all makes mistakes sometimes & I also have what RCAF Mike has accurately described to me in the past as 'the draw of shame'

I think the AG wing posted looks okay to me & is probably WW2 manufactured.

Things to look out for when collecting wings that I have learned:
- Often a wing will look great from the obverse but obviously a reproduction when viewed from the reverse. Always look at the reverse. No photo equals no purchase. A another collector once told me "They can't fake the backs". Having said that, they are getting better at that also, so beware. Fakers trawl sites like these to learn how to make their next inventions even better.
- Learn the difference between a 'King's Crown' & a "Queens Crown'. It astounds just how many dealers don't know the difference.
- Remember that the RAF, etc. did not just throw out all King's Crown wings after Queen Elizabeth II ascended the throne either.
- Learn when certain wings were introduced. Some 'WW2' attributed wings offered for sale were not even established until well after the guns fell silent.
- Beware of bullion badges. They should be tarnished with approximately 80 years of age & not be nice & bright.
- Mess Dress was suspended during WW2 & so a Mess Dress wing should be pre-WW2 or Post-WW2.
- Beware dirty looking badges. Ask yourself "Why are they dirty?" It doesn't makes sense most of the time. Heavily worn badges are a different 'kettle of fish'.
- Handle as many original wings as is possible because education will really only comes with experience & time. Take the time.
- If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. A rare wing is just that RARE! Why does the seller have a few listed separately?
- A wing's story does not equal provenance. Provenance is a record of ownership not a copy & paste from Wikipedia, for instance.
- A wing with solid provenance from a WW2 chap’s estate may still be questionable if the gentleman concerned bought the wing many years after the conflict as a replacement, for example.
- Have a look at the seller's other goods for sale. Is he or she a crook or just uneducated? Sometimes the answer is obvious. ie: Spanmil, Von Gold, etc. on eBay.
- Be aware of what bad wings look like as well as good wings. Know thy enemy.
- Beware of the old adage '' This came out of an old collection". Did that collector know what they were talking about or were they sold an old copy?
- Beware of 'spaghetti' looking threads on the reverse of some wings but that rule won't apply to WW1 & early wings unfortunately. Generally the spaghetti threading will be coupled with the natural fibre fakes also & so the lack of any quality British silk thread to the wing will be the obvious 'tell'.
- There are ‘theatre made’ wings though & to the untrained or even trained eye, these may be difficult to discern easily.
- Often what is not stated in a sale description may be more important than what is stated. We all want to believe something is what it probably isn't sometimes but if we slow down & actually read the description properly, sometimes the seller has never stated it is original or from any World War, etc. at all. You won't get a refund under such circumstances.
- Do your own homework with any wing for sale & do not trust a dealer to do the home work for you. Forearmed is forewarned.
- Build a circle of like-minded collectors with experience online over time but don't ask them to do all the work for you either & add something to the 'crowd funded research' most of us benefit from anyway because of the little amount of information out there in print, etc. on the subject.
- On that subject, you couldn't go wrong with purchasing Warren Carroll's (RIP) excellent book 'Eagles Recalled'. But no one book will tell all. 'It takes a village to raise a child' could be an analogy for us wing collectors.
- Trust no one really, not even me. I don't know it all, no one does, & every museum, website & collection (Unfortunately) probably has a fake or two amongst it that may have slipped through no matter how vigilant the collector or curator has been.

I have attached some examples of what not to buy.
- Beware of vacuum backed wings.
- Beware of 'Hairy Pakistani' wings constructed in natural fibres. Most of the time they should actually resemble beautiful British silk instead. They are worlds apart when you see or handle the real thing.
- Beware of widely spaced threading to the reverse of wings, typically sold as Canadian made or RCAF wings. These are classic Patch King post war reproductions. Yeah, apparently they produced badges for the US military during the war but they didn't supply these during WW2.

It is not an exhaustive list to go by but it may help a little. You just can't beat experience & handling the real thing.

Best regards,
David

[phaethon]

Hi David,

Thank you so much for this comprehensive reply and advice. Well appreciated!

To me, all the embroidered items are pure minefield and I would like to acquire only some main examples for my collection. Saying that, never knows, maybe appetite increases as well when discovering this wonderful world of patches and badges....

[Alex Rice]

Thanks David
Some great advice there. I have actually copied your text into a doc where I keep images of my RAF wings, it will be a good future reference and easier to find there!
Cheers,
Alex

[Nichollg]

I agree with David191 comments.
It is lots of time and research.
I would add, look at lots and lots of photos, especially of people from the period wearing wings/brevets and note every single detail.
Also, evidence of wear (left over threads from uniform removal, or holes from where stitches were, wear from harness rubbing) can be good indicators, but must be consistent as they can also be faked.
Remember gut feeling plays a part too, if something doesn't feel quite right it often isn't and don't let initial excitement cloud your judgement, take time assessing a potential purchase.
Get to touch and feel as many as possible and share picture and ask for others' opinions, everything helps build towards your knowledge.
Remember there is no one indicator to say something is real, often a number of indicators are required to help build a complete picture.
I am always happy to help or often my humble opinion.

[phaethon]

Here are some of my recent finds;

Pilot wings, I assume these are modern issue or post ww2 for sure? They just look too fresh and quality is not there.

[phaethon]

half wings, top 2 could be ok but "AE" is vacuum backed wings, that David referred above?

I am not sure about the Navigator wing, is that the same "series" copy? Any ideas (of all of them)?

[David191]

Hi Phaethon,

My two cents worth on your wings posted:

The pilot wing is a well known copy.

The vacuum backed wings are copies also.

The top Air Gunner wing I am suspicious of. Is it embroidered on wool or felt please? Felt would indicate a copy straight away. I'm not a fan of the back of it either but that may be down to my personal opinion only.

The second Air Gunner wing is a good I reckon.


Best regards,
David

[NEMO]

The half wing at the top of the page that started this thread I'm more than happy is original and I would say early war,my reason for this is this style of black paper backing I have seen many times usually on full pilots wings that are accepted as early or pre war pattern and often on the back of observer half wings that were later phased out .

[arrestingu]

....wartime from its construction cheers
Steve