The Scottish Horse

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Andrew,
I'll have to find my copy and get back to you on that, if it is struck from a crude die in copper, as opposed to being incised from brass, with a dark bronze finish, most had this applied, with two very distinctive rectangular wire loops, then it will be.
Regards Frank

[Lancer 17]

Originally Posted by Lancer 17

The Second Scotish Horse was partially recruited in Melbourne Australia, my cousins grand father served with this Regiment. The origonal badges were cut brass, one of the dealers has one listed but I now cant remember who. The Shoulder Titles were hand cut ScH on a bar, I have one and there is also one for sale at about GBP 115 (I think). I will find my shoulder title and measure it in a day or so and post the size.

Regards

Phil.

Right, I have finally found my ScH shoulder title, it was on my computer desk, right here beside me and I couldnt find it !!

Its 36.75mm long and 19.5mm high, the Quatermasters Store has on for sale at 115 GBP as I thought. I havent found the cut out brass hat badge as yet.

I have a copy of "Southern Cross Scots" by John Price that has a fine left side portrait of a member of the Scottish Horse with the cut out brass badge with a patch of tartan behind the badge on the turn up of his slouch hat together with some stylised Chooks Feathers and the cut out ScH shoulder title on his shoulder strap.

I hope that this helps.

Regards

Phil.

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Andrew,
Yes, it is clearly shown at 593, as you mentioned, not a book I look at very often, they were certainly worn by Australians, although, not exclusively, I believe that the first ScH's were actually made, interestingly, in Natal and were cast rather than incised, but, really all of this is not relevant whatsoever in the British section, we should be talking about it in the SA section.
Regards again Frank

[mooke07]

Hi all,

Just adding on to this thread with one of my Scottish Horse badges - flat brass but not die cut - one is listed for sale on popular dealer site at present as brass and not bronze Scottish Horse Imperial Yeomanry K&K 1382. Wire loops to rear, mine are in a different position to the one for sale.

Cheers Dean

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Dean,
1381 and 1382 are both SAMIF and made in South Africa, 1384, which also came in plain brass, die struck, was made here in Great Britain.
I believe the description is correct, in the case of this latter.
The original members recruited in Scotland actually attested as members of the Imperial Yeomanry, as very clearly shown in WO128, although, their actual service, once in South Africa, was in the SAMIF, they had similar conditions, but, with better pay and you will find men who also have another set of SAMIF papers in WO126.
1384 was certainly worn out on the veldt prior to Vereeniging and original examples are now getting quite hard to find.
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by mooke07

Hi all,

Just adding on to this thread with one of my Scottish Horse badges - flat brass but not die cut - one is listed for sale on popular dealer site at present as brass and not bronze Scottish Horse Imperial Yeomanry K&K 1382. Wire loops to rear, mine are in a different position to the one for sale.

Cheers Dean

[mooke07]

Thanks for the additional information Frank. Learning lots, cheers Dean.

[Traist]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Hello Andrew,
Yes, it is clearly shown at 593, as you mentioned, not a book I look at very often, they were certainly worn by Australians, although, not exclusively, I believe that the first ScH's were actually made, interestingly, in Natal and were cast rather than incised, but, really all of this is not relevant whatsoever in the British section, we should be talking about it in the SA section.
Regards again Frank

Hi Frank, I agree that it should be in the SA section, but here it is. I have an SCH in heavy cast which I agree stems from Natal. The die struck badge I have is similar to 593, but the points of the cross are contained within the circle. It is die struck and I was lead to believe that this badge arrived in SA with the first troops recruited in Scotland. Regards Andrew

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Andrew,
That will be as shown as 1384 in Hugh Kings book, yes, die struck here in Great Britain, in brass, although, some exist with a bronze finish applied, it would have been the first badge worn by the first members of the regiment.
It was a proper, well struck little badge and was made just like any other Victorian cap badge worn during the war, which are always quite easy to spot, if they don't look one hundred and fifteen years old, the chances are they won't be.
Regards Frank

[Frank Kelley]

Jan,
Just a quick note, I see this thread has been moved, if you are still following it, you might well feel that it has been completely derailed.
It occurred to me that given your use of the word yeomanry, you may have just wanted information on the Scottish Horse that was part of the British Armies Home Service Imperial Yeomanry Force and subsequently, both the Territorial Force and Territorial Army during the Great War and Second World War.

If so, please do another post in the British sections "Cavalry and Yeomanry" and make it clear you want information on the British Army regiment only.

I'm sorry if we have taken you to a place that you had no wish to go to.
If not and you wish to discuss the original regiment or indeed the subsequent Transvaal Volunteer Force please do talk to us here.
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by Rafyani

Hi Guy's,

What are the correct sizes of an original Scottish Horse Yeomanry cap badge?

Thanks,
Jan

[Frank Kelley]

Well Andrew, it looks like just you and I, never mind, I do have, somewhere, another, but, almost all of it's finish has worn to bare copper and it is certainly not as good as the example attached.
I think these men were really superb, in particular, all those who took on wretched Sarel Albert, with "great dash" according to K himself.
They certainly made a bloody mess of his laager anyway!
Kind regards Frank

[iaindh]

Hi all, without digressing from the SH badges, here's a little I have on the history of the Scottish Horse:

the SH were raised in SA by the Marquis of Tullabardine and volunteers were also raised in Scotland hence the joint claim to its founding. There is a monument to the SH on the Royal Mile in Edinburgh and another on Caledonian Hill in Jo’burg. The 2 monuments were built in parallel.
After the ABW the SH were disbanded but later in 1902 The Scottish Horse were reconstituted as two regiments by the Duke of Atholl, one Scottish, one SA, both claiming descent from the original Scottish Horse.
In SA the SH were again disbanded in 1907 in favour of the ILH as it was considered there were too many mounted regiments in the Transvaal. The Duke of Atholl also formed the Transvaal Scottish Volunteers, the forerunners of the Transvaal Scottish Regiment.
The regimental tartan is the Atholl tartan whilst the pipers wear the Tullabadine tartan.
The Duke settled in SA only returning to Scotland to fulfill his duties as Duke of Atholl, amongst which was maintaining the Atholl Highlanders, the only private army in Britain.

Iain

[Traist]

Hi Frank, here is a picture of my Sch Boer War collection. The badge in the middle top, is the one that is die struck and is supposed to have come from Scotland at the beginning. The bottom left hand is the heavy cast badge. Regards Andrew

[Frank Kelley]

Iain,
To the best of my knowledge the original regiment was conceived and gazetted in Scotland on the 15th of December 1900, hence the date on the badges, notwithstanding, as far as the SAMIF were concerned, for official purpose, in the returns in WO108, the date of the 18th of January 1901 in Cape Town is very clearly shown.
Their original "Scottish" members were attested as members of the Imperial Yeomanry, but, actually served as members of the SAMIF, they returned home and were very formally disbanded in Edinburgh on the 3rd of September 1902, I doubt if they were still drawing their SAMIF pay at that point in time.
They were really bloody superb, both their 1st and 2nd regiments had actually been disbanded after Vereeniging, on the 7th of July 1902 in Johannesburg, they fought a very hard war and from the beginning of 1902, matters in the Northern Transvaal had become very intense indeed.
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by iaindh

Hi all, without digressing from the SH badges, here's a little I have on the history of the Scottish Horse:

the SH were raised in SA by the Marquis of Tullabardine and volunteers were also raised in Scotland hence the joint claim to its founding. There is a monument to the SH on the Royal Mile in Edinburgh and another on Caledonian Hill in Jo’burg. The 2 monuments were built in parallel.
After the ABW the SH were disbanded but later in 1902 The Scottish Horse were reconstituted as two regiments by the Duke of Atholl, one Scottish, one SA, both claiming descent from the original Scottish Horse.
In SA the SH were again disbanded in 1907 in favour of the ILH as it was considered there were too many mounted regiments in the Transvaal. The Duke of Atholl also formed the Transvaal Scottish Volunteers, the forerunners of the Transvaal Scottish Regiment.
The regimental tartan is the Atholl tartan whilst the pipers wear the Tullabadine tartan.
The Duke settled in SA only returning to Scotland to fulfill his duties as Duke of Atholl, amongst which was maintaining the Atholl Highlanders, the only private army in Britain.

Iain

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Andrew,
Yes, that is correct, that was their first badge and I suppose these days it would be around the £350 mark or there about, the other you mention will have been made in Natal and this was, in effect, their first slouch hat badge, actually for the whole regiment, before it left Pietermaritzburg in February 1901, not a badge that is easy to find these days.
Kind regards Frank

[Traist]

Thanks Frank, the Sch badges seem to have jumped in value. Have fun. Andrew