Two buttons to be dated

[garry thomson]

Can the Forum help me to date these two buttons.

No1 Reverse
C. Pitt & Co. 50 St Martins Lane. London.

No2 Reverse
Firmin & Sons Ltd.

Thanks Garry.

[Cribyn]

Hello Garry

Your first button is for the 92nd (Gordon Highlanders) Regiment of Foot and being an officers' pattern will date from 1855-1881. I believe the backmark is consistent with those dates.

The second button is HM Customs, Victorian crown but dating after 1875 when Firmin became a limited company, so 1875-1901, unless a Customs expert can give you a different date!

Regards
Roger

[davidguthrie]

1. 92nd Regiment of Foot became the Gordon Highlanders in 1881. Charles Pitt & Co., button makers from 1875-1895 at Martin Lane address, after which moved to 31 Maddox St. I'd therefore date this button 1875-1881.

[davidwyke]

Hi Chaps

My thoughts:

92nd Foot - Officers. The pattern of button worn 1855-1881 but that particular button late 1870's - 1881.

Customs - late 1870's - 1901 going by the backmark. Is it HM Customs (as in GB) though? I don't really know anything about Customs buttons but I have a few Victorian examples and they all have a central "VR" cypher. So, either they used more than one pattern (in which case the period of use might be narrower than the above dates) or could it possibly be another one from the "colonies"?

David

[garry thomson]

Thanks for the info chaps. My Grandfather was in the Gordons though this button was before his time it will go into my special drawer.
The Customs button, I will take as Colonial as it was bought in Cape town along with other Custom buttons IE being GVR, GV1R, and E11R. GV1R and E11R are bilingual with Custom/ Doeane on the Garter. Both have Kings Crowns which I found rather strange as I thought the crown would have been changed on the ER11
Maybe Steven can enlighten me on this one

Thanks Garry.

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by garry thomson

Thanks for the info chaps. My Grandfather was in the Gordons though this button was before his time it will go into my special drawer.
The Customs button, I will take as Colonial as it was bought in Cape town along with other Custom buttons IE being GVR, GV1R, and E11R. GV1R and E11R are bilingual with Custom/ Doeane on the Garter. Both have Kings Crowns which I found rather strange as I thought the crown would have been changed on the ER11
Maybe Steven can enlighten me on this one

Thanks Garry.

Hi Garry

If the Customs button is from South Africa then presumably at the time it was in use (pre 1901) Cape Colony & Natal would have had their own Customs Service of some kind?

Can't explain the EIIR button with a KC. I know some SA military units continued using KC insignia long past 1953 but they must have changed the button die to incorporate the EIIR cypher so you would expect that the crown would have been changed at the same time.

Have to admit that my knowledge of Customs buttons is about zero though!

David

[guBulawayo]

Garry, hope you don't mind, I have posted the Customs button on a Facebook button collectors group - will let you know of any outcome - Wayne

[guBulawayo]

Looking on this site it appears to be a UK HM Customs & Excise button from the Victorian era.

http://www.hm-waterguard.org.uk/Unif...ALTH_DOMINIONS

Wayne

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by guBulawayo

Looking on this site it appears to be a UK HM Customs & Excise button from the Victorian era.

http://www.hm-waterguard.org.uk/Unif...ALTH_DOMINIONS

Wayne

Hi Wayne

That's a really interesting site. The HM Customs buttons I have (with VR cypher) are shown but I can't see the button in question unless I missed it?

There are Customs buttons & insignia shown which feature an anchor - worn by cutter/launch crews. Maybe that's what the button is - worn by Customs Officers "afloat" and those I have were worn by shore based Officers?

David

PS......Garry.......your SA Customs KC/EIIR button is shown on the above site - it was an error.

[guBulawayo]

Oops sorry its similar but has letters in the middle not anchor,

I still await a reply to my FB post

Wayne

[garry thomson]

Hi Wayne/David,
had a look on the waterguard site, the SA E11R is the same as my one. I wonder if they changed it later to the Queens crown.

I look forward to any more info from you chaps regarding the Victorian customs button.
Thanks Again
Garry.

[davidwyke]

Hi Garry

As regards the SA Customs button with KC & EIIR, there may have been a QC version but I suspect that it was worn until RSA buttons were introduced, without a crown obviously.

As regards your Customs button with anchor - "reading between the lines" of the web site I think the versions I have and which are shown (with VR cypher) were the standard HM Customs buttons of the period, presumably worn by land-based Officers.

Your button (with anchor) may have been worn by Customs Officers who conducted inspections on vessels before they actually docked. Whether that is the case and whether it would have been worn in the UK or SA, or both - no idea.

All the above is nothing more than speculation though - is there a Customs Officer/collector out there!!

David

[btns]

The customs button has been identified in the past as 'South African'.
It is found in two versions: QVC and KC.

Known backmarks are:
Firmin & Sons Ltd, London (from this thread)
Firmin & Sons Ld, 108 St. Martins Lane, London
H.J. Henochsberg, Natal