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  #16  
Old 17-12-12, 09:31 AM
Chrisr Chrisr is offline
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Andy,

Many thanks for your reply. I fully accept the tremendous amount of knowledge of members on this forum. I have learnt a great deal from them and am greatly indebted to this very fine forum.

I also fully accept the RND badges have been copied to death - one just has to see badgeman selling them day after day on ebay.

I am not burying my head in the sand re the ones I have - I know the provenance of them. Either that or copies were made in the 1920's or 1930's. I am happy to be proven wrong and accept copies were made prior to WW2 if someone can show me they were - with decent facts to support the claim.

However, I am challenging that not all the "accepted advice" within our fraternity is correct and simply tried to show that there are various differences in the RND badges, whereas the link implied there was only one design for each badge. Take the Drake badge for instance - just because the motto is not two words does that automatically make it a copy - and on what basis other than opinion? Certainly the badge I have, if they were not copied before WW2, begs to differ.

Perhaps some experts can also be said to put their heads in the sand because their advice is challenged. The question I have asked but is rarely answered - what is the factual basis for saying one design is a wrongun and another is good, other than some person's opinion? One of the few occasions this has occurred is your very good post on the KC Derbyshire Regiment where you convincingly argued the dates when the Regiment changed to The Sherwood Foresters ( Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire) in 1902 and that sliders were not introduced until 1903. Good sound logic. So much so I ditched my cherished slidered Derbyshire and acquired a lugged one.

Another example I am having trouble with. What is the factual basis that the lettering on the genuine Welsh Horse badges were unvoided and voided ones are copies? I am happy either way as I have a version of both - but until someone can show me factually, rather than someone's opinion because they have been collecting for years, then I am keeping both.

There are too many minefields in our hobby for us not to keep an open mind when new evidence is presented. And a pox on all those who have copied badges!!!

Anyway, have a great Christmas and all the best for the New Year.

Best wishes
Chris
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  #17  
Old 17-12-12, 09:54 AM
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Paddy Paddy is offline
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Chris

I first saw this thread about half way through and held off commenting as in a way I could see what was coming. As the person who provided the information to ArnhemJim I thought I had better comment as it seems that the provided information is now being taken out of context.

I am not, and never have been an expert on RND badges, I merely strive to improve my knowledge and if I can pass on anything useful that I have picked up to others then I am happy to do so but I (usually) always state at the time that it is my own personal opinion, it is there for others to use or leave as they please. When I first sent the information to Jim I also sent a short email, an extract from that email is – “These are the main things I look for in a genuine badge and they will identify about 95% of the fakes pretty quickly but there are other subtle differences if it's a close call”. Perhaps I should get him to amend his blog to say “what to look for in a fake Gaunt RND badge”, I am happy to do that as I have always believed that there was more than one manufacturer, but the vast majority of fakes seem to be modelled on the Gaunt patterns.

The reason there is only one “genuine” badge of each Bn pictured in the blog is because I only have one of each, I do not need more than one and will not stockpile such an expensive commodity. My observations however were not based merely on one badge. I have a lot of pictures of RND badges from dealer’s websites (good and bad), auctioneer’s websites etc, I have been through the Royal Naval Museum’s reserve collection of RND badges (have handled them and photographed them) and have corresponded with other RND collectors – I do not own the copyright for any of those pictures so I am therefore unable to use them for the purposes of Jim’s blog.

Earlier this year when the prices of RND badges went crazy there were 2 Drake badges that sold for over £400 each, both of those badges (IMHO) were genuine Gaunt badges, what if they had been obvious fakes and been purchased by a forum member who had asked for opinions on here? I would rather have given my opinion at the time for the right reasons than bury my head in the sand and see someone lose a lot of money. I would feel guilty if someone missed out on a bargain because my opinion was incorrect but I would feel a whole lot worse if they had wasted a lot of money on something that was obviously wrong and I could have steered them away from it.

You have a set of RND Bn badges which are not maker marked (bar one), collected in the 1920s and purchased by you in the 1960s, why don’t you make up a similar table with pictures of your badges so that others can see the differences between Gaunt badges and those by other manufacturers with provenance, thus arming them with even more information to beat the fakers.

As I said earlier, I am not an expert, I collect RND badges but they are not my only interest and I have been collecting other regiments/arms etc for approx 35 years, I like to think I can spot the most obvious fakes and if I can help others with the information I have gained then I will try and do so rather than keep that information to myself, like the vast majority of collectors it is done for the right reasons.

Merry Christmas

Paddy
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  #18  
Old 17-12-12, 10:00 AM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisr View Post
Andy,

Many thanks for your reply. I fully accept the tremendous amount of knowledge of members on this forum. I have learnt a great deal from them and am greatly indebted to this very fine forum.

I also fully accept the RND badges have been copied to death - one just has to see badgeman selling them day after day on ebay.

I am not burying my head in the sand re the ones I have - I know the provenance of them. Either that or copies were made in the 1920's or 1930's. I am happy to be proven wrong and accept copies were made prior to WW2 if someone can show me they were - with decent facts to support the claim.

However, I am challenging that not all the "accepted advice" within our fraternity is correct and simply tried to show that there are various differences in the RND badges, whereas the link implied there was only one design for each badge. Take the Drake badge for instance - just because the motto is not two words does that automatically make it a copy - and on what basis other than opinion? Certainly the badge I have, if they were not copied before WW2, begs to differ.

Perhaps some experts can also be said to put their heads in the sand because their advice is challenged. The question I have asked but is rarely answered - what is the factual basis for saying one design is a wrongun and another is good, other than some person's opinion? One of the few occasions this has occurred is your very good post on the KC Derbyshire Regiment where you convincingly argued the dates when the Regiment changed to The Sherwood Foresters ( Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire) in 1902 and that sliders were not introduced until 1903. Good sound logic. So much so I ditched my cherished slidered Derbyshire and acquired a lugged one.

Another example I am having trouble with. What is the factual basis that the lettering on the genuine Welsh Horse badges were unvoided and voided ones are copies? I am happy either way as I have a version of both - but until someone can show me factually, rather than someone's opinion because they have been collecting for years, then I am keeping both.

There are too many minefields in our hobby for us not to keep an open mind when new evidence is presented. And a pox on all those who have copied badges!!!

Anyway, have a great Christmas and all the best for the New Year.

Best wishes
Chris
Chris,
many thanks for taking my reply in the spirit it was meant! The trouble with "Facts" is they are often on paper, and in particular those relating to badges tend to be on rather old paper too! Other facts are stored in the brains of some rather crusty old gentlemen and sadly many have passed to the "Collectors Fair in the Sky" and taken them with them!

I will be the first to admit that I am not the most academic of collectors and base my comments on the facts unfolded by the likes of KLR and other learned scholars!

What I do have however is a collection which is now in the tens of thousands. I also dabble quite a bit in the selling field and as such "Handle" thousands more. It is great to have "Facts" but unless they can be linked to the "Raw Material" then they are just words. One area for example is 1916 Economy Issue badges, where I have honed an eye for fake spotting based on touch and feel but backed by "Facts".

What we need in this hobby is the paper based facts linked to modern technology and the internet! "Watch this space!!!"

Andy
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  #19  
Old 18-12-12, 02:43 AM
Chrisr Chrisr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy View Post
Chris

You have a set of RND Bn badges which are not maker marked (bar one), collected in the 1920s and purchased by you in the 1960s, why don’t you make up a similar table with pictures of your badges so that others can see the differences between Gaunt badges and those by other manufacturers with provenance, thus arming them with even more information to beat the fakers.


Paddy
Hi Paddy,

Many thanks for your reply. I never doubted your very good intentions, it just seemed from the site there was only one type of genuine badge.

I will make a new post "Genuine RND Badges" and include the story behind their acquisition and history.

Perhaps others can add badges that they believe are genuine together with the history of their acquisition,and we can build up a picture of the variations collectors have.

All the best and have a great Christmas.

Cheers
Chris
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  #20  
Old 18-12-12, 03:51 AM
Chrisr Chrisr is offline
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Thank you Andy.

It must be an amazing collection. Methinks you live in badge heaven!!

Have a great Christmas
Cheers
Chris
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  #21  
Old 18-12-12, 04:08 PM
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Arnhemjim Arnhemjim is offline
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Default RND - Drake Bn - Thoughts Please?

To the Forum All,
Even though I'm retired Navy (United States), I have never collected any insignia from the Royal Naval Division, but found it an interesting subject. If you read the introduction to my blog, as well as the majority of pages, one of its principal purposes was to provide limited knowledge and guidance to advanced collectors as well as those just getting into the field. By no means was the blog or its detailed contents ever intended to be a be all - end all definitive error free comprehensive source of information. Being ex-Naval Intelligence I fully appreciate how presumptuous, as well as impossible, that would be. With the gracious assistance of Paddy, and other members of the Forum, I have hoped to provide guidance through my limited knowledge, and that of others who have chosen to contribute. I'm going to try and continue to do so. Hopefully what information I have provided has been accurate, and if not exhaustive, at least thought provoking. What is fascinating to me, is not only the number of hits I have had on the blog (Over 70,000 in 19 months) given the esoteric nature of the subject matter, but the extreme lack of feedback comments. This is even more amazing in light of this current extended conversation on RND cap badges, demonstrating a tremendous depth and breath of knowledge residing within the membership of this forum. Personally I feel this is precisely the purpose and goal of forums of this nature, and provide a treasure trove of fascinating information, to any and all that might be interested.
With Warmest Christmas Greetings to All and Best Wishes in the New Year,
Arnhem Jim
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  #22  
Old 18-12-12, 04:44 PM
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magpie magpie is offline
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Both badges that sold for over £400 are of this type.
Andy

Last edited by magpie; 28-09-13 at 10:42 PM.
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  #23  
Old 06-02-13, 07:52 PM
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Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
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Originally Posted by 2747andy View Post
Advance Warning - As this Cap Badge does not fall into my area of collecting it will probably be offered for sale on my Ebay site or I would be open to any reasonable offers made by viewers of this thread. Please do not contribute if you object to me obtaining information via the Forum on an item intended for future sale.


A recent find and without a "Gaunt" plate or sweatholes I'm pretty confident this is genuine. It also features a non-voided crown which is not common either. It has plenty of positive features, such as the detail, weight, patina, braze and sturdy "D" shaped lugs! I feel it could be a non-Gaunt makers variation! Any thought please?

Andy
There's a stall over in the far corner at the Bromley fair and he's had the same badge there for the last three visits I've been too and it's still there so I think that tells a story in itself. There also the fact that every other badge he has for sale is a load of ..... These things have been around donkeys years and patina isn't a selling point.
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  #24  
Old 06-02-13, 08:27 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Keith,
many thanks for your views, however I am pretty certain it is genuine and that's good enough for me!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2908589598...84.m1555.l2649

Andy
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  #25  
Old 06-02-13, 09:44 PM
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Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
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Originally Posted by 2747andy View Post
Keith,
many thanks for your views, however I am pretty certain it is genuine and that's good enough for me!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2908589598...84.m1555.l2649

Andy
2nd time lucky then.
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  #26  
Old 06-02-13, 10:10 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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2nd time lucky then.
Keith,
not all items sell first time around and as I don't sell fakes, copies or reproduction items, I don't really care how many times it is relisted.....

I don't have to make up Cock n' Bull stories to sell badges, unlike some desparate dealers!

Best regards

Andy
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  #27  
Old 07-02-13, 10:06 AM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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This is one I've been able to add to my own collection (I don't collect or sell repros'!) In very good condition and although it shows genuine signs of age it also retains it's original gilt finish, something the fakers have yet to replicate that well!

Andy
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  #28  
Old 07-02-13, 09:43 PM
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Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
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Originally Posted by 2747andy View Post
This is one I've been able to add to my own collection (I don't collect or sell repros'!) In very good condition and although it shows genuine signs of age it also retains it's original gilt finish, something the fakers have yet to replicate that well!

Andy
You may be interested. Bosley's Postal Auction 14th Nov 2001 - Lot 41 Drake Battalion RND OR's Cap Badge, BM KC (Non Voided), lead soldered replacement loops. (£20-40). Illustrated on Plate 3 (Black & White), small image but looks to be the same.
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  #29  
Old 07-02-13, 10:15 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Keith,
thanks for that but I do not have old Bosley's lists, I'm pretty certain this is a genuine badge, probably Lambourne (but that's an assumption) or a maker other than Gaunt!

Thanks again!

Andy
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